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Old 08-12-2019, 09:40 AM
 
1,935 posts, read 558,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
That's you describing how red flag laws have operated, not how to fix them so that they aren't abused. I'm being really adamant about this point because some kind of gun control is coming. We can work to come up with solutions so that whatever is handed down isn't a complete disaster or we can just sit by and take the current failure of red flag laws. I opt for the former.
Good luck getting solution suggestions. People here donít want solutions, they donít want their current privileges to change. Thatís all they scream in post after post. ďI had it good for this long, I donít want it to change!Ē
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:43 AM
 
30,107 posts, read 16,626,466 times
Reputation: 13997
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
I think what they are going to do is constantly move the definition of "mentally unstable" depending who is in office.
As in wanting to own a gun is evidence of a mentally unstable condition. I have seen it repeated here a number of times.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:46 AM
 
30,107 posts, read 16,626,466 times
Reputation: 13997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hemi View Post
Good luck getting solution suggestions. People here don’t want solutions, they don’t want their current privileges to change. That’s all they scream in post after post. “I had it good for this long, I don’t want it to change!”
Property ownership, self protection, self ownership, aren't privileges bestowed upon you from benevolent politicians, they are rights you are born with.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:46 AM
 
10,005 posts, read 4,706,337 times
Reputation: 5590
Probably 30 years ago, the first time I had heard of a "no knock" warrant. Cops in KC Kans. burst into a house around 2 am and then burst into the bedroom. They did not announce themselves as cops. The HO reached for his gun and they killed him. They were at the wrong address. Nothing was done to the cops.
There had been some home invasions in the same neighborhood previously.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:49 AM
 
30,107 posts, read 16,626,466 times
Reputation: 13997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
Probably 30 years ago, the first time I had heard of a "no knock" warrant. Cops in KC Kans. burst into a house around 2 am and then burst into the bedroom. They did not announce themselves as cops. The HO reached for his gun and they killed him. They were at the wrong address. Nothing was done to the cops.
There had been some home invasions in the same neighborhood previously.
And this was just another one. The govt ID badge doesnt change that fact.
Too bad it didnt go the other way.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:50 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,469 posts, read 11,751,914 times
Reputation: 13499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
All that is possible, it could really happen. That is why smart people do not post potentially damaging intel on social media. What gun owner would post a photo of his gear? What sane person would post their pride for our President beyond a few "he is not that bad" and what really gets me is when people post their vacation plans. There is nothing like telling the world that you just hopped on a plane and won't be back for a week or 2.



Red Flag scenarios like the one the OP mentions are scary for anyone. We already have them in the form of children that can falsely accuse an adult of touching them. A wife can tell the Police that her ex husband threatened her. The Police have to take these accusations seriously.

I know a guy that was under a great strain at work and home and he said something about harming himself. His wife thought it was credible enough to call the Police. They actually stopped the commuter train he was on short of the station, bordered the train and removed him. They went to his house and confiscated his 2 rifles. I think it was an extreme how they treated him because he was never in any real danger of harming himself but how does one know for sure? I don't know if he ever got his rifles back but then again his wife never liked them anyways...



Real threats need to be checked out by the authorities. False red flags are a real concern and those that report them should be prosecuted for doing so.

Red flag laws can and will be abused horribly. Vindictive exes, neighbors who just don't like you, anyone with an ax to grind can just destroy your life. The ones advocating for these laws talk about "due process, but all that entails is a phone call reporting you and the cops taking that to a judge in chambers for a signature. Then our illustrious police swing into action.


Red flag has passed here in NV thanks to Vegas and their Californication and had this new law been in effect not so long ago I would be without my firearms right now at the least. Thanks to a silly woman who dropped by my place one day that I had chosen to have a few drinks.


I shouldn't drink because of physical medical issues but things happen and she called 911 thinking I needed medics, which I didn't but as I said she is silly. While on the call she told dispatch I had been drinking and there were firearms in my house. So, it wasn't medics who showed up. It was cops, nder the assumption I had threatened ths gal and was waving weapons around.


My guns were locked up in my bedroom and I was hardly falling down drunk but they didn't know that. So while I sat there peacefully in my recliner 5 very well armed cops showed up. My neighbors were freaking out and I'm sitting there looking at this woman in a VERY displeased manner.


One of the two cops actually in my house and looking at me was very perplexed as to why they were there. There is no law saying I can't drink in y own house even if I own guns so long as I am not being stupid. Which I was far from doing. The other cop inside wanted to take my guns anyway but the first one was like how can you even justify that? There's nothing for us to do here.


So he flags the ...entry team...outside and says all clear, wished me a nice day and they left. Under this new red flag they could and probably would have taken my guns. Just because. No matter how you slice it these red flags suck canal water and will tear our privacy to shreds. What I didn't know after the cops left is the one who wanted to take my guns tried to get my neighbors to swear out a complaint.


They told him know as I didn't do anything they felt was wrong or dangerous. He wanted them to lie so he could take my guns. They told me about this later and were pretty ticked themselves. Without red flags we can't trust cops. The last thing they need is blanket power. It would see folks losing their guns never to be seen again wholesale. And a lot of these weapons would end up in some cops, DAs or judges safes.


My firearms are high end and I have a lot invested in them. The cop who wanted my neighbors to lie showed a bit to much interest in my 1911 when I unlocked my guns and let them look. . I'm still pi$$ed at that woman for starting all that and she has been removed from my life.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Barrington
46,738 posts, read 34,407,940 times
Reputation: 15526
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
When given a lawful command by the police it's best to obey...The man was a idiot....

I don't know how you people can live with such paranoia all caused by the obsession with guns...I've been on this earth almost 80 years, and have never even locked my doors, but then we have reasonable gun laws and far fewer guns here in Canada.
I don’t own a gun and likely never will unless for some unknown reason I decided to move to a very rural area.
I don’t worry about someone magically appearing in my living room in the middle of the night. I have good locks on my doors/ windows and cameras outside. I also have dogs that bark at any unusual sound.

I don’t worry about LE with a search warrant storming my door, even if they get the wrong address. I would comply and deal with the mistaken identity later.

I don’t do social media.

For self proclaimed conservatives, it is a curious thing how some seem to have a serious mistrust- paranoia of LE, often based on anecdotal information.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:56 AM
 
7,114 posts, read 2,587,397 times
Reputation: 3879
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Again, merely talking to someone after receiving a credible report of abusive or threatening behavior is not conferring guilt without due process. That's standard, accepted police work.
Talk to them for what purpose?

For the officer to get a feeling about whether the accuser's feelings have merit, such that the collection of feelings can now be used against the accused to take their rights from them with no actual crime having been committed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
The same thing applies if the police receive a credible report of domestic violence or child abuse at someone's house . . . they will go an investigate.
Domestic violence is an actual crime that gets committed. Child abuse is an actual crime. These crimes have evidence. We already have laws for investigating and prosecuting crimes, no red flag laws are needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
That's one possible "fix" to red flag laws as they are. You don't see a fix to this as you're not allowing yourself to think outside of how the laws are currently administered.
I see a system in place that operates under innocent until proven guilty of committing a crime, in a court of law, beyond reasonable doubt (criminal) or preponderance of EVIDENCE (civil).

Red flag laws do not adhere to that system. They assign guilt absent both a crime having actually been committed and due process afforded to the accused prior to the assignment of guilt.

Even your "oh just have the benevolent police do a polite, well intentioned interview" still does nothing more than add a bunch more feelings and intuitions to assign guilt of future crime because there is no evidence of any actual crime.

No matter how you pretty it up, you are still trying to engineer a system where "you make people nervous" is a felony punishable with the removal o natural, individual rights.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:05 AM
Status: "Censorship is for totalitarians" (set 2 days ago)
 
57 posts, read 9,342 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
When given a lawful command by the police it's best to obey...The man was a idiot....

I don't know how you people can live with such paranoia all caused by the obsession with guns...I've been on this earth almost 80 years, and have never even locked my doors, but then we have reasonable gun laws and far fewer guns here in Canada.
Also have no freedom of speech.
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Old 08-12-2019, 10:08 AM
 
10,511 posts, read 6,374,206 times
Reputation: 5868
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom View Post
I donít own a gun and likely never will unless for some unknown reason I decided to move to a very rural area.
I donít worry about someone magically appearing in my living room in the middle of the night. I have good locks on my doors/ windows and cameras outside. I also have dogs that bark at any unusual sound.

I donít worry about LE with a search warrant storming my door, even if they get the wrong address. I would comply and deal with the mistaken identity later.

I donít do social media.

For self proclaimed conservatives, it is a curious thing how some seem to have a serious mistrust- paranoia of LE, often based on anecdotal information.

I don't distrust them. In the scenario that the OP posted, they are just doing their job. All they have to go on way the made up story that was presented to them. Not sure what you will do, if your door gets kicked open in the middle of the night (I've got all you have , except my dog would try to make friends) which doesn't make it impossible to happen, but I'm drawing a firearm to protect my wife and myself from the would be intruder. Doing that will get us killed. This isn't the fault of the cops, but the politicians that put the law in place.
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