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Old 08-12-2019, 10:03 PM
 
1,859 posts, read 1,012,478 times
Reputation: 900

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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
We should pull our troops from Germany, all of them. Make it a mass exodus, no warning , no explanation, and watch the economy of the locals fall. We literally owe Germany nothing. If anything it is they who owe a profound debt.

You might want to take a look at public opinion surveys in Germany. That might help you figure out who actually wants to keep US troops there (hint - it's not Germans).
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:04 PM
 
Location: the Sticks
9,050 posts, read 2,568,109 times
Reputation: 4764
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
We don't spend money on defending Germany to defend Germany -- we do it to protect our own interests.

Seriously kids -- this is not complicated.

You have to be naive to think that the USA sets up military bases around the world soley to protect the rest of the world.

Are you really all that naive?
No I think we set up military bases all over the world to appease the military industrial complex. There is big money to be made playing world cop.

Germany isn't holding up their end of the deal and we should move on from them. I absolutely feel the same about Israel, Egypt and Saudi.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:07 PM
 
Location: the Sticks
9,050 posts, read 2,568,109 times
Reputation: 4764
Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
You might want to take a look at public opinion surveys in Germany. That might help you figure out who actually wants to keep US troops there (hint - it's not Germans).
And that works for me. Hint, we don't owe them anything and in fact the opposite is true. Quite simply we don't need them. If they feel they don't need us then fine, lets part ways and be done with it.
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Old Yesterday, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Tucson AZ & Leipzig, Germany
2,441 posts, read 7,806,429 times
Reputation: 3756
Since 1994, the US has closed over 200 bases and posts in Germany, including the ones where I was stationed when I was in the US Army in the 1970s. There are a couple of dozen US military installations left, but many are logistics and support related to US missions in the middle east and Africa. Some have little military purpose, like the US outpost in Garmisch, which is a hotel and recreation center for US military located in the Alps.

Does it make sense to move the critical logistics and transportation installations 500 miles (from the western parts of Germany to somewhere in Poland) so they are closer to a major adversary (i.e. Russia)? That would put them within very close range to the Russian oblast (like a province or state) of Kaliningrad, which is covered with military assets of all sorts. It sits on the northeast border of Poland. The main port of Gdansk, Poland is about 80 miles from Kaliningrad, Russia, so it might not be an ideal choice for a maritime terminal that is needed to support a large US military presence. Transport connections are the lifeline, literally, for military units.

The small number of actual combat and combat support troops the US has in Germany are mostly around Stuttgart, and in Bavaria, centered around the Grafenwoehr training area. It is the largest troop training area in Europe. Sure, they could be moved to Poland, if a suitable equivalent could be set up there. If you add up all the costs to US taxpayers vs benefits to the military mission, it would mostly be a political move, not to benefit the military mission in the long term.
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Old Yesterday, 03:03 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
12,065 posts, read 4,114,574 times
Reputation: 7453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
They can't get over the fact that Britain outplayed them. They think they deserve to lead Europe. It drives them to make bad decisions.
The new EU President Ursula von der Leyen has already stated last wekk of her ambition to create European Armed Forces.

Of course Ursula von der Leyen has a track record when t comes to defence, she was German Minister for Defence from 2013 to 2019, and was among the most unpopular politicians in Germany. Indeed there were allegations of corruption and maladministration when she was German Defence Minister, indeed things became so bad that German troops had to use broomsticks instead of guns in a NATO Rapid Response exercise, and due to a lack of armoured personewl carriers they used mercedes vans.

I wonder how many broomsticks will be needed in relation to the new EU Army.

German army used broomsticks instead of guns during training - The Telegraph

Germany's army is so under-equipped that it used broomsticks instead of machine guns - The Washington Post

Merkel faces fury at home over choice of von der Leyen for European President - The Telegraph

In case you are wondering we don't get to vote for an EU President, and they are largely unaccountable to anyone and can't even be sacked.

The EU is a joke and it's Army will be a joke, perhaps they can build another Maginot Line or invest in some white flags.
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
12,065 posts, read 4,114,574 times
Reputation: 7453
As for the future, the EU would be unwise to assume on British commitment to European defence in the future and may also unwise to also assume US commitment, as the right in the US have questioned Article 5 and NATO iself, whilst defence cuts ad withdrawl from overseas bases are planned by the left in the US.

Britain would be best served by defending North Atlantic and other trade routes via the sea, whilst the US may withdraw more forces and just have bases designed to reinforce Europe should they ever need to or decide to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by London School of Economics

EU leaders would therefore be unwise to assume that the current British government’s commitment to the sovereignty of eastern European states indicates that future governments will be equally dedicated. Moreover, if European countries are concerned about Russian irredentism in eastern Europe, they might be wise to incentivise Britain to retain its opt-in to the military defence of the EU with quid pro quo economic agreements that reinforce the UK’s economic capacity to continue this defence role. Otherwise, the limits of genuine ‘solidarity’ among EU member states may be exposed.

The UK has a genuine interest in European security, but Brexit has reopened existential questions also regarding defence - London School of Economics

For Germany to have allowed non-Nato member Ireland to set parameters on Brexit is a gamble - New Statesman

The worst thing about Trump's outbursts on Brexit and Nato? That he's right - The Spectator

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Old Yesterday, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Metro Seattle Area - Born and Raised
743 posts, read 302,605 times
Reputation: 1813
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
We don't spend money on defending Germany to defend Germany -- we do it to protect our own interests.

Seriously kids -- this is not complicated.

You have to be naive to think that the USA sets up military bases around the world soley to protect the rest of the world.

Are you really all that naive?
No. Many of us are not naive or simply stupid.

As a retired Combat Arms Soldier and one who studied history, while taking part, a VERY SMALL part, in several world events since 1980, I stongly feel that the "Cold War" NATO needs to be revisited. It's true that Germany mainly supports our military operations in the the Middle East and Africa, but many, if not all can be shifted to our Eastern European Allies like Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania and in return, pumping U.S. Dollars into their local economies and developing closer military ties with countries that what an American military footprint inside of their country for the security factor of knowing that they will not be attacked by Russia or forces directly supported by the Russians to overthrow their current government's or the loss of land... Ask the Ukrainians about that.

Germany isn't sure if they want American forces or if they want to pay their 2% of their own GDP for their own defense, which America has been footing for over 75 years now. If Germany and France want to build their own EU Army, that's a good thing, but I'm pretty sure it will basically be a French/German military force with very limited defensive and offensive power... And very little support from the other Western European countries.

More important, I'm pretty sure that Britain, Canada, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech, Bulgaria, Romania and the three Baltic States will hitch their military "wagons" to the United Stated military "engine." Simply with these listed countries, allied with the U.S., that would be enough military might to stop any Russian/Russian supported aggression into Eastern Europe... The New frontline in a possible New Cold War.

I respect Germany, but she has over played her hand and I no longer feel that Germany or her people are worthy of the protection from the full military might of the United States. Honestly, its time for Germany to fund and build this new European Union military... The only thing that I do know for a fact is that this EU Army is going to cost Germany far-FAR more than 2% of her GNP that she is failing to meet as part of her agreement with NATO... Which, to be honest, is one heck of a deal!!

I guess we, the United States, spoiled Germany by protecting her for all these decades at a bargain basement price.
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Old Yesterday, 04:10 AM
 
1,578 posts, read 347,931 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by RowingFiend View Post
Germany has plenty of money to pay for the welfare state and untold numbers of illegal immigrants. Why can't they pay their NATO bill?
Why? Because after WWII, they were told that they couldn't field a huge military - has been that way for over a half a century. Now if the United States wants to free the reigns and allow them to bolster its military, that will change things.

Germany has done very well after being demolished and had to completely rebuild. No small task for its people. Marshall Plan courtesy of USA helped fund that. Thanks to US. Then in 1990 it completely assumed a complete country (E. Germany) as a part of it's own. Again, no small task. Thankfully we assisted w/ being its defense for much of the time with a ton of bases and Soldiers there. We're doing the same in S. Korea and the rest of the world. It's our own fault but what the military leaders and politicians thought important to do (to keep Russia at bay).

Paying a certain part of GDP toward military is grossly different than "PAYING NATO".....such fake news by Faux and the diplomats tweeting. It's not the same thing.

Last edited by TBMorgan; Yesterday at 04:22 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 05:23 AM
 
Location: OH->FL->NJ
10,201 posts, read 8,181,248 times
Reputation: 4359
42K troops left in Germany
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Old Yesterday, 05:24 AM
 
23,684 posts, read 12,500,531 times
Reputation: 7544
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
No I think we set up military bases all over the world to appease the military industrial complex. There is big money to be made playing world cop.

Germany isn't holding up their end of the deal and we should move on from them. I absolutely feel the same about Israel, Egypt and Saudi.
But -- the deal is for show.

Even if Germany spent zero dollars on defense the USA would not pull out of Germany.

They just won't.

Not because they are protecting Germany but because it is strategic for the USA to have a base in Germany.

It's political, strategic, self serving.

Germany knows that.
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