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Old 08-14-2019, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
12,127 posts, read 4,139,234 times
Reputation: 7491

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
That makes no sense. The Germans alone pay for their social welfare state. The cost of defense (regardless of who pays for it) is tiny compared to the cost of the social security net. It is financed with the taxes and contributions payed by citizens and companies.

Nor are Germans pushing back, whatever you mean by that. Most Germans don't mind immigrants. Nor are immigrants changing the nature of the country, whatever you mean by that. The constitution and laws have not been changed with regard to immigrants.

Russia can be trusted as much or little as the US or China. That's what Germans have realized, since the Snowden leaks at the latest.
The biggest threat to US Forces in Europe comes from the Democrats who are serious about cuting US Military Spending and withdrawing vast numbers of US Forces from places such as Europe. The money saved being directed towards US health,, welfare and infrastructure.

The end result may be more bases with very little manpower but which can be used to reinforce Europe should the US decide to.

In terms of Britain, large numbers of forces have already been withdrawn from Europe, and there are many the advocat Britain concentrating on any naval threat and threat to trade rather than commiting land forces in a Post-Brexit Europe.

In terms of the EU and Germany they are going to have to increasingly defend themselves against Russian and other forces, as well as Russian nuclear capabilities.

This is just the reality of the situation.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:51 AM
 
52,367 posts, read 42,133,031 times
Reputation: 32687
Quote:
Originally Posted by bergun View Post
Many of us do not have an issue with Germany... Heck, my mother is German, I speak some German, love German food (Go figure!!) and I served in Germany during the Cold War... Even trained with the German Army... To defend Germany and her people from a possible invasion from the East.

The problem is that Germany is greatly benefiting from U.S. Military protection and refuses to pay her fair share of 2%... Which is a serious deal, if you do the math, when she can. Plus, Merkel and her counterpart in France wants to create an EU Army... Which Germany will end up paying far more than 2% to maintain this new military force.

Do I agree with everything Trump does? No, but in this case, I agree with him since it's the American tax payer that ends up paying the difference in higher taxes and less social services for our own people. Btw, yes, I'm a nationalist... Sorry, not a White nationalist since the other half of my bloodline is from West Africa.

The world has changed and its not the 1950s or the 1980s. NATO needs to change with the times and if the member States do not feel NATO is worth the investment, than end this alliance and let Germany build one that fits her needs, while we do the same. We will end up with most of Eastern Europe wanting to be allied with the United States and our long time ally, the United Kingdom in creating a new alliance of willing partners that will be far more active in their own defense.

I'm pretty sure most of the German population want the American Army and Air Force out of their country and we should respect the will of the German people and leave, on good terms. Basically a friendly "divorce" since the love is long gone.
^^^BWah hah hah....that's the first time I'd heard of the EU army.

I agree with most of your post and yeah Germany is in for a world of hurt because frankly they're going to wind up standing alone against Russia as the rest of those countries (assuming Brexit happens) aren't going to share the cost, let alone be reliable in the slightest if things start to get serious.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Metro Seattle Area - Born and Raised
754 posts, read 305,224 times
Reputation: 1829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
Exactly correct^^^

I am tired of this false narrative about 2% GDP defense spending being "paying their share of NATO". The two are completely different. The US pays NATO only $685 million (which is 0.004% of our GDP) in direct support.

The US spends about 3.5% of its GDP on defense. But we have forces spread all over the world. Only about 5% of our military spending is directly related to defense of Europe. Germany's military is mostly confined to Western Europe. They spend 1.2%, which is probably enough to accomplish their mission. Do we want or expect them to build aircraft carriers and police the Persian Gulf and the South China Sea? I doubt it.

https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-...osts-and-value

Rather than ask Germany to spend as much on military as we do, my suggestion is that we reduce our own spending closer to what they spend. The dollars we waste on the war machine is obscene.
I think the latest issue with Germany is their refusal to send one or two warships into the Persian Gulf to help patrol the flow of oil and protect merchant ships from the latest Iranian threats. Btw, most of this oil is headed towards Asian and Europe... Not the United States.

Let's be honest, the EU is basically controlled one or two countries and with Germany being one of them. As a global leader, Germany needs to share in the dangers, like the United Kingdom, in order to protect their own interests AND the global economy, which they, us and many more countries benefit from.

I'm pretty sure that the U.S. isn't interested in Germany building Aircraft Carriers or matching our defense spending, but she does have a Navy with smaller, but highly capable, warships designed for patrolling and escort duties to ensure the flow of oil and the protection of European Union flagged merchant ships.

With that being said, is it fair for the U.S. to shoulder the full cost of protecting all EU flagged merchant ships when they're carrying oil/products for the EU economy? I say no.

Seriously, is German blood more valuable than American or British blood? Heck, the UK even sent warships into waters illegally claimed China in the South China Sea... Btw, what would happen to the German/EU economies, if China should shutdown the South China Sea or emplament a huge "tax" on merchant shipping or simply seizing ships for being in their waters "illegally?" The answer is that they will take a serious hit and demand that the American President and the U.S. Navy do do something quick... Something that they're not willing to do.
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:00 AM
 
32,898 posts, read 16,840,502 times
Reputation: 17755
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
We don't spend money on defending Germany to defend Germany -- we do it to protect our own interests.

Seriously kids -- this is not complicated.

You have to be naive to think that the USA sets up military bases around the world soley to protect the rest of the world.

Are you really all that naive?
They are. Anyone reading the TO&E of the US presence in Germany sees it for what it is: A logistics hub to support US operations in the Middle East. They're not there to protect Germany. The US military knows this. Germany knows this. Poland knows this. Heck, Russia knows this.

Trump and his followers don't.
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:07 AM
 
32,898 posts, read 16,840,502 times
Reputation: 17755
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBMorgan View Post
Paying a certain part of GDP toward military is grossly different than "PAYING NATO".....such fake news by Faux and the diplomats tweeting. It's not the same thing.
Well, they know their audience.
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:43 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,862 posts, read 19,495,510 times
Reputation: 8628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
The biggest threat to US Forces in Europe comes from the Democrats who are serious about cuting US Military Spending and withdrawing vast numbers of US Forces from places such as Europe. The money saved being directed towards US health,, welfare and infrastructure.

The end result may be more bases with very little manpower but which can be used to reinforce Europe should the US decide to.

In terms of Britain, large numbers of forces have already been withdrawn from Europe, and there are many the advocat Britain concentrating on any naval threat and threat to trade rather than commiting land forces in a Post-Brexit Europe.

In terms of the EU and Germany they are going to have to increasingly defend themselves against Russian and other forces, as well as Russian nuclear capabilities.

This is just the reality of the situation.
Germany should kick them all out asap.

Again, Russia is not considered a threat by most Germans anymore.

Germans don't want to participate in the Persian Gulf because they don't consider Iran a threat, either. Most Germans are on Iran's side regarding the nuclear deal, sanctions etc. They know very well who wants to start a war and who doesn't. They know who the villain is in the Persian Gulf.
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:45 AM
 
Location: USA
18,716 posts, read 9,171,343 times
Reputation: 14058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
They are. Anyone reading the TO&E of the US presence in Germany sees it for what it is: A logistics hub to support US operations in the Middle East. They're not there to protect Germany. The US military knows this. Germany knows this. Poland knows this. Heck, Russia knows this.

Trump and his followers don't.
That is partially true, but they are also there to protect Europe from Russia, or any other threat. So, it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. The U.S. doesn't need all those bases, resources, and assets just as a logistical hub for the Middle East.

Many Americans, including Trump supporters believe we should reduce our presence on the Middle East, and Europe.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:04 PM
 
32,898 posts, read 16,840,502 times
Reputation: 17755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
That is partially true, but they are also there to protect Europe from Russia, or any other threat.
You're right, I should have aid "mostly" as a logistics hub. But let's be fair - when the heaviest unit is a Stryker brigade, we're not exactly talking an impressive array of military might, are we?
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:30 PM
 
5,416 posts, read 6,598,402 times
Reputation: 10506
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Only problem -- the USA troops aren't in Germany are not in Germany to protect Germany. There are serious USA motivating factors for them being there.

Only Trump and this Ambassador doesn't realize we all know that.
Poland embraces taking up that formerly German role. Matters little whether a military base is in Germany, Poland, or elsewhere as long as we are staged to do what we must; it is not necessary to stay in Germany to protect our national interests.

So ,Germany, give us a reason to stay in Germany alone.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:34 PM
 
23,758 posts, read 12,532,211 times
Reputation: 7581
Logistics hubs all over the world......not to protect the world....to protect American interests.
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