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Old 08-15-2019, 09:58 AM
 
37,753 posts, read 16,353,863 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
No I think we set up military bases all over the world to appease the military industrial complex. There is big money to be made playing world cop.

Germany isn't holding up their end of the deal and we should move on from them. I absolutely feel the same about Israel, Egypt and Saudi.
"No I think", then DON'T!
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:01 AM
 
32,899 posts, read 16,844,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough View Post
And what has that got to do with them NOT paying what they promised to?
Investigate the agreed-to date for meeting the 2% goal, you very not knowledgeable person.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:31 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,877 posts, read 19,499,537 times
Reputation: 8651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Russia under Putin is hardly trustworthy, and as for the Persian Gulf most of the world's oil is transported through it, and industrial Germany is both dependent on Russian fuel and oil.

In terms of the Germans they are increasingly going to have to defend themselves rather than rely on others, and the same is true of the EU.

The withdrawl of the UK from the EU will now mean that over 80% of defence spening in terms of countries comes from outside of the EU.

I have already stated that relying on Britain and the US may not be an option in the future, and as a Briton I can honestly say unlike previous generations I wouldn't lift a finger for Europe and the EU.
Almost all major oil and gas exporting countries are rogue states (Russia, Saudi-Arabia, US, Iran etc.), so if Germany needs to import most of it, it has to pick the logistically most reasonable rogue source, i.e. Russia.

Defense is no problem at all, after all, Germany and most of the rest of Europe do not consider Russia a threat. People live in the past. What would Russia do in Europe? Their population is shrinking, there is nothing Russia could gain in Europe that they don't have themselves. Nor do they have an ideological mission anymore. The only reason the Russians participate in that whole "let's invade someone's airspace and develop more weapons" game is that the US and Nato are perceived as aggressors, and rightly so in my view.

Without the US and Nato Europe would get along just fine with our neighbor Russia.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Metro Seattle Area - Born and Raised
755 posts, read 305,505 times
Reputation: 1830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Almost all major oil and gas exporting countries are rogue states (Russia, Saudi-Arabia, US, Iran etc.), so if Germany needs to import most of it, it has to pick the logistically most reasonable rogue source, i.e. Russia.

Defense is no problem at all, after all, Germany and most of the rest of Europe do not consider Russia a threat. People live in the past. What would Russia do in Europe? Their population is shrinking, there is nothing Russia could gain in Europe that they don't have themselves. Nor do they have an ideological mission anymore. The only reason the Russians participate in that whole "let's invade someone's airspace and develop more weapons" game is that the US and Nato are perceived as aggressors, and rightly so in my view.

Without the US and Nato Europe would get along just fine with our neighbor Russia.
Neuling, this type of thinking got Europe in trouble back in 1939... Which, as an end result, created NATO.

Also, if the United States was a rogue nation, we'd have plenty of "U.S. territories" all over Western Europe... The only soil we, the Americans, kept is the soil to bury our dead, who died in battle to free the Europeans from Nazism.

And this happened twice!! Both in WW1 and WW2!!

Sorry, but a "rogue" nation wouldn't have done anything that noble. Plus!!! We, the United Stated paid for the reconstruction of Europe after WW2.

If the United States of America is a "rogue nation," we seriously suck at it and maybe, just maybe we can learn a thing or two from the Europeans on how to be a good rogue nation.

You Europeans have short memories!!
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:13 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,877 posts, read 19,499,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergun View Post
Neuling, this type of thinking got Europe in trouble back in 1939... Which, as an end result, created NATO.

Also, if the United States was a rogue nation, we'd have plenty of "U.S. territories" all over Western Europe... The only soil we, the Americans, kept is the soil to bury our dead, who died in battle to free the Europeans from Nazism.

And this happened twice!! Both in WW1 and WW2!!

Sorry, but a "rogue" nation wouldn't have done anything that noble. Plus!!! We, the United Stated paid for the reconstruction of Europe after WW2.

If the United States of America is a "rogue nation," we seriously suck at it and maybe, just maybe we can learn a thing or two from the Europeans on how to be a good rogue nation.

You Europeans have short memories!!
Which dictionary does your definition of rogue come from? What have territories got to do with it?!
Everyone seems to agree that Russia is a rogue state, yet they don't have territories.

There was nothing noble about the world wars, on neither side. Together with the Nazis themselves, the US was the driving force behind the holocaust to begin with.
And it was Russia that made by far the greatest sacrifices to defeat the Nazis.

The US has been a rogue state for decades. What makes you think that just because a country did something halfway decent 80 years ago, it was or would continue to be a decent country in the future?!

The reconstruction of Europe was mostly the result of the hard work of the Europeans themselves.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:28 PM
 
1,679 posts, read 372,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Almost all major oil and gas exporting countries are rogue states (Russia, Saudi-Arabia, US, Iran etc.),
Don't think you know what the term rogue state means.
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Old 08-15-2019, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
12,149 posts, read 4,144,000 times
Reputation: 7505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Almost all major oil and gas exporting countries are rogue states (Russia, Saudi-Arabia, US, Iran etc.), so if Germany needs to import most of it, it has to pick the logistically most reasonable rogue source, i.e. Russia.
Britain gets it's gas from the North Sea and Norway, as well as LNG Tankers from Qatar, however we are starting to take more LNG from the US. Britain does not rely on Russia for energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuelling

Defense is no problem at all, after all, Germany and most of the rest of Europe do not consider Russia a threat. People live in the past. What would Russia do in Europe? Their population is shrinking, there is nothing Russia could gain in Europe that they don't have themselves. Nor do they have an ideological mission anymore. The only reason the Russians participate in that whole "let's invade someone's airspace and develop more weapons" game is that the US and Nato are perceived as aggressors, and rightly so in my view. Without the US and Nato Europe would get along just fine with our neighbor Russia.
Russia is an unpredictable regime, which is now run by something akin to organised crme. Indeed Russa has always been unpredictable and now has a defence pact with China.

As Winston Churchill said of Russia - I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key.

Either way it looks like something Germany will have to worry about and build up forces to meet, and is not something that other countries need involve themselves if NATO ceases to exist in it's current form.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:52 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,877 posts, read 19,499,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBMorgan View Post
Don't think you know what the term rogue state means.
My understanding is that it describes a government, democratically elected or not, that is in reality a regime, i.e. violating international rules and conventions, being involved in illegal and immoral activities, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Britain gets it's gas from the North Sea and Norway, as well as LNG Tankers from Qatar, however we are starting to take more LNG from the US. Britain does not rely on Russia for energy.



Russia is an unpredictable regime, which is now run by something akin to organised crme. Indeed Russa has always been unpredictable and now has a defence pact with China.

As Winston Churchill said of Russia - I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key.

Either way it looks like something Germany will have to worry about and build up forces to meet, and is not something that other countries need involve themselves if NATO ceases to exist in it's current form.
Well, Germany doesn't have much oil of its own, nor is Norway a big oil exporter. Norway can't supply a big country like Germany with all its industry with enough oil.

"Has always" makes no sense at all because everything keeps changing all the time. Russia is more reliable than many other countries. Today even my opinion is more valuable than Churchill's.
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
12,149 posts, read 4,144,000 times
Reputation: 7505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Well, Germany doesn't have much oil of its own, nor is Norway a big oil exporter. Norway can't supply a big country like Germany with all its industry with enough oil.

"Has always" makes no sense at all because everything keeps changing all the time. Russia is more reliable than many other countries. Today even my opinion is more valuable than Churchill's.
I am not really interested to be honest, my only point is it wqould be in Germans own interest to start looking at it's own defence.

Indeed the US may pull out of Europe due to future Democrat defence cuts, and the current Republican administration has shown a total lack of enthusiasm in terms of the cornerstone of the alliance in relation to Article 5 and indeed NATO itself.

Whilst as already stated earlier in the thread it would be very unwise to rely on the support of a Post Brexit Britain, which would be better served in just investing in it's Navy rather than commiting tanks and troops to EU countries.

Best of luck with Germans defence, the Euro Army and on relying on Putin's corrupt and unpredictable Russia for your energy needs.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:28 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,877 posts, read 19,499,537 times
Reputation: 8651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
I am not really interested to be honest, my only point is it wqould be in Germans own interest to start looking at it's own defence.

Indeed the US may pull out of Europe due to future Democrat defence cuts, and the current Republican administration has shown a total lack of enthusiasm in terms of the cornerstone of the alliance in relation to Article 5 and indeed NATO itself.

Whilst as already stated earlier in the thread it would be very unwise to rely on the support of a Post Brexit Britain, which would be better served in just investing in it's Navy rather than commiting tanks and troops to EU countries.

Best of luck with Germans defence, the Euro Army and on relying on Putin's corrupt and unpredictable Russia for your energy needs.
Fine with me.

No luck required for the German or European defense. Nor much money.
Russia may be corrupt, but not more so than other rogue states like the US, or Arab countries, which have critics chopped into pieces abroad.
Nor is Russia unpredictable. They have proved to be reliable suppliers. They did not stop supplies or try blackmail or anything despite the sanctions. Not bad compared to the US, which keeps blackmailing, threatening and backstabbing even its "friends"...
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