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Old 08-12-2019, 08:28 PM
Status: "white culture is like living with radiation -IS" (set 12 days ago)
 
908 posts, read 164,853 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GABESTA535 View Post
If they make it all the way to the U.S. border from El Salvador, they're the exact opposite of lazy.
You act like they are walking the whole way. They aren't.
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,907 posts, read 2,752,208 times
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Well on one hand it is our long standing policy in Central America. But I think the migrant crisis comes from poor economic well being in central America.

There are three factors:

1. Destruction of Indigenous farmers
2. Cartel Activity
3. Worker Wages

The third is directly perpetrated by America as we use our influence in terms of trade agreements and corporate investment to keep their minimum wage low. It makes sense for such countries to agree since they want the investment.

Their governments want to get a handle on crime, but drug activity is far too powerful. Some of their largest costumers are in the United States.

You see there is a huge problem when you have a highly developed/advanced economy adjacent to poor under powered ones. They don't mix well and the wealth available in the latter is too much for many to pass up. That's not to say the US is solely to blame for drug related crimes in central America, but that is a factor.

The first point can be chalked up to investment. Most of these countries, especially Guatemala want to develop fast and small local producers harm development. As much of the investment is coming from the north and foriegn trade/banks the local economic system is disrupted to extreme degrees.

Many of these asylum seekers are just looking for better job opportunity and lower crime neighborhoods, their lives aren't in immediate peril.

As for US activity in the 60s and 80s was an evolution of the banana wars which was the US trying to create trading dominance in the region. We want stability but we want to keep central America in the US sphere of influence. We won most of these battles except for Nicaragua. Despite their socialist policies they need an economic power to join in competition with the US. Ortega chose China. They had investors trying to build a new panama canal but that didn't work out as planned: https://psmag.com/magazine/inside-th...icaragua-canal

Either way mass migration is profitable for a lot of people including drug smugglers, farming in the US, and other usages of cheap labor.

Its misleading to call Asylum seekers what we call them, but what we have is still a crisis. If we want it to stop we could give up our economic interests in the region. The UFC is gone and we don't need resources or trading routes from central America. But powerful people will not give up.
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:31 PM
 
3,381 posts, read 1,752,302 times
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Im sure there are several factors for the crisis at the border. You know what the biggest one is? The inability/refusal of our own government to enforce our laws! They should seek asylum at the ports of entry only. Then they should be made to wait somewhere else until their case can be heard. All the others should immediately be kicked the hell out of here!!
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:31 PM
 
37,511 posts, read 16,601,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GABESTA535 View Post
If they make it all the way to the U.S. border from El Salvador, they're the exact opposite of lazy.
No, that's taking the easy way out instead of fixing their own damned countries.
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Old 08-12-2019, 08:32 PM
 
7,433 posts, read 2,696,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
This is way wrong.

An interesting book that recently came out is Solita, Solita, which is a series of in depth interviews of 15 immigrants from Central America. They walk through deserts and swamps, and cling to the tops of freight train cars, which they call 'la bestia' (the beast) to get to the US.

It doesn't sound like a bunch of lazy and lame.

I will say that if you read the book, some of the immigrants are not fleeing as a result of bad foreign policy. One of them, a guy named Gabriel Mendez from Honduras, talks about how he was raped and molested as a child by 'bad cousins.' Hard to blame that on US foreign policy. He escaped to the US and wound up as a college student in Oakland, CA.

BTW, of the 15 interviewed for the book, 5 were from Honduras, 4 from El Salvador, and 6 from Guatemala.
Thats the thing. Many of these people are making an incredibly dangerous trek not to improve their economic station but to escape violence. And while all of these are spanish speaking countries they do not necessarily get along. So a Honduran trekking across Mexico is its own issue.

I am not an open borders person. But I do think we need to respect asylum seekers from countries we had a hand in fing up.

A very good friend of mine is Honduran. He is a naturalized U.S. citizen who served in Viet Nam. He always said that the U.S. needed to stop giving Latin Americans guns. In other words let the countries rule be settled naturally.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:31 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,626 posts, read 646,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_N_1962 View Post
From 100 years ago...seriously? That's no longer an excuse. And it really doesn't matter whos fault it is, they don't have to be let in.
It goes back actually way more than 100 years. In 1855 an American adventurer and doctor named William Walker managed to take over Nicaragua with a private army, and made himself 'king.'

Around 1900, several entrepreneurs from New Orleans moved into the north coast of Honduras, bought up masses of land, and grew bananas. This later became the infamous United Fruit company that partnered with DC and the US military to control the region.

But the meddling continued long after that, with both Republican and Democratic administrations. Nixon, Carter, and Reagan all up to their eyeballs in meddling in Central America.

HW Bush sent troops into Panama to remove Noriega. I remember naively thinking at the time, 'since when does the US overthrow a foreign gov't? It turns out, since roughly time immemorial.

It goes back 100 years, but it does not stop there.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:50 PM
 
161 posts, read 26,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
A majority of those crossing the southern border now come from Central America (mainly Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras). I've seen the meme that this is the result of US foreign policy in C.A. I figured that it was far-left tripe/trope that could easily be knocked down. I went to my local library and checked out some books. The surprising answer is that this 'meme' is largely correct.

US meddling in Central America goes back a long way, but really acclivated around 1900 when US-based fruit growers moved into the area, always lobbying DC for military and other forms of support, which they usually got. We were the marionettes, installing some dictators and deposing others. We fomented some revolutions and quashed others.

The US militarily occupied Nicaragua starting under President Wilson, from 1912 to 1932. In 1954, the CIA got rid of liberal Jacabo Arbenz Guzman in Guatemala, who had been duly elected with 65% in 1950. In 1980, when the entire region was blowing up from violence, a State Dept. official remarked, "what we wouldn't give for an Arbenz today." Many, many other similar examples of meddling exist.

We propped up military dictatorships and oligarchs, in return for a steady supply of cheap bananas, coffee, and other goods and raw materials.

Now in 2019, over 100 years of misguided meddling comes back to bite at the border.
As someone who has family from South America and a first generation American. US meddling in nations affairs to overthrow a left wing government in favor of a centrist, or propping up a right government in favor of a leftist government smells like America is responsible for its illegal immigration at its southern border. We are all Americans. Everyone in this chat thread is thief, including those who believe in MAGA, to even those who believe in Social Justice, and Feminism. All are thieves. Why? all of such people benefit of the backs of cheap labor from south of the border, as well as talented labor that comes from overseas, and even talented labor from the Southern Border as well. My thing is this, doing constant regime change in these banana Republics, propping right wing governments, and overthrowing left wing governments. Making unfavorable trade deals in which the nation with the produce receives only 20% commission or less creates conditions that we see today in parts of Central and South America. Central America did not have enough capital to build or prop itself up. Propping up right wing governments, and not allowing nations to seek its own destiny in the name of sovereignty caused this mess we see at the border today with SJWS wanting to bring illegals in, and idiot MAGA supporters who want to build useless wall.

Central America did not have the chance to develop in a way to challenge American economic hegemony in the Western Hemisphere. Central America's talented workforce either moved to the United States legally, thus not having a talented work force to create work force for unskilled creates even more poverty. Thus cause many to flee for opportunities either in Mexico, United States and Canada. The United States is clearly responsible for what has happened in Central America. If Central American nations had sovereignty, their would be no need to build a god damn wall on our Southern Border.

As someone who is a child of legal immigrants. I dislike MAGA wall rhetoric, and I dislike SJW rhetoric of allowing illegals in even those SJW don't understand history and they too are part of the problem of illegals being here.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:55 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,626 posts, read 646,178 times
Reputation: 1143
btw, I know it is commonplace to label the US-supported regimes of Central America as 'right wing,' but I would dispute that label. They were dictatorships by military and oligarchs (primarily large land-owners), and not 'right-wing' in the sense used in US politics, i.e. favoring limited government. In fact they were just the opposite.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:59 PM
 
161 posts, read 26,415 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
btw, I know it is commonplace to label the US-supported regimes of Central America as 'right wing,' but I would dispute that label. They were dictatorships by military and oligarchs (primarily large land-owners), and not 'right-wing' in the sense used in US politics, i.e. favoring limited government. In fact they were just the opposite.
This is also true. Right wing means different things in different lands.
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Old 08-13-2019, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
14,540 posts, read 8,011,929 times
Reputation: 53811
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiiancoconut View Post
Just BS excuses. These fake asylum seekers are just trying to exploit our strong economy and our generosity. They (Undocumented Democrats) basically want to steal our resources.
Do you believe that every single person coming to this country fits that profile? Should every one be placed into that one size fits all box or do you think that proper vetting and court orders are a tad more fair and realistic? Yes there are abuses and not just from the Central American triangle. I know or a friend of our Indian friends that were ordered out after their tour on a cruise ship work visa expired. They didn't leave, yet they have another work visa. Why? They asked for asylum and were denied. They're trying for a green card and their next court date is in 2021. Why? Meanwhile there was one born here with another on the way, and yes they're on welfare. Want to talk about the Russian birth industry. It's a status symbol for Russian's to come here and have an American born child. Do you think we should address all of the people coming here taking advantage of our country or do you prefer to keep that myopic focus on just one issue? Our laws are clear. People are in their legal right to come here and ask for asylum. We don't get to pick and choose which ones we respect just because FOX news tells you to hate a certain color.
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