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Old Yesterday, 03:16 PM
Status: "white culture is like living with radiation -IS" (set 13 days ago)
 
921 posts, read 164,853 times
Reputation: 554

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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Consumers do not decide where their money goes. They decide what organization they choose to work with but do not have any say in how the surplus is spent. Nor do they have much say in the business process unto which this economy works. You think all of those thousands upon thousands of factory workers in the Rust Belt wanted to send their job to China? Imagine how different it would be for the people of that region if they had an actual say in the decision making of the company they work for. You think they would have sent away their own jobs? Our economic system is tyrannical upon examination. Americans spend most of their lives at work and most companies are run like an authoritarian dictatorship. If you send most of your life in a state of authoritarianism can you really claim to live in a democracy?

Communism doesn't advocate for a centrally planned economy, again people are confusing it with Soviet Leninism. Communism wanted the means of productions in all industries to be owned and controlled by the workers, essentially a co-op. It never desired for the state to control the economy.
there is nothing stopping a group of people from getting together and investing to start a business in a free market economy so whats the difference?
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM
Status: "white culture is like living with radiation -IS" (set 13 days ago)
 
921 posts, read 164,853 times
Reputation: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Have you read the works of Karl Marx? If you have which ones?
yes quite a bit. have you read anything besides marx?
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Old Yesterday, 03:22 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,254 posts, read 671,909 times
Reputation: 2351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_N_1962 View Post
yes quite a bit. have you read anything besides marx?
I had to in order to get a degree in economics. Guess what I didn't have to read in order to get a degree in Economics? Marx, capitalism's greatest critic was curiously absent from the required reading.

Which works of Marx have you read?
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Old Yesterday, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,139 posts, read 242,470 times
Reputation: 1241
Communism devours itself. No thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,254 posts, read 671,909 times
Reputation: 2351
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjshae View Post
Communism devours itself. No thanks.
The same can be said for capitalism. Capitalism needs constant competition in order to work, yet the end goal of each major business entity is to achieve total market domination (no competition). So the necessary functioning of the system runs counter to the end goal of the entities working within that system. Hence without constant outside interference Capitalism would collapse within a short period of time. Its a very unstable and immoral system.
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Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,139 posts, read 242,470 times
Reputation: 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
The same can be said for capitalism. Capitalism needs constant competition in order to work, yet the end goal of each major business entity is to achieve total market domination (no competition). So the necessary functioning of the system runs counter to the end goal of the entities working within that system. Hence without constant outside interference Capitalism would collapse within a short period of time. Its a very unstable and immoral system.
Yes there's no system that will run perfectly with humans in control. But at least with capitalist most of the people still get to eat.
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Old Yesterday, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
11,162 posts, read 10,292,066 times
Reputation: 7888
I hate to think of the technological advancements we wouldn’t have right now if the world was communist. We would still be living like the USSR circa 1980. But the biggest testament to capitalism over communism, is that historically, communist countries had to keep people from escaping while capitalist countries have had to limit people coming IN.

And I’m not saying that capitalism needs no controls. It does. But I will never understand the mindset of people that long for communism. It seems completely insane to me.
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Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,254 posts, read 671,909 times
Reputation: 2351
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjshae View Post
Yes there's no system that will run perfectly with humans in control. But at least with capitalist most of the people still get to eat.
There is a better system then capitalism, we just have to stop thinking of it as the end of the road and progress onto something much better.
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Old Yesterday, 04:36 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,254 posts, read 671,909 times
Reputation: 2351
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
I hate to think of the technological advancements we wouldn’t have right now if the world was communist. We would still be living like the USSR circa 1980. But the biggest testament to capitalism over communism, is that historically, communist countries had to keep people from escaping while capitalist countries have had to limit people coming IN.

And I’m not saying that capitalism needs no controls. It does. But I will never understand the mindset of people that long for communism. It seems completely insane to me.
Nobody wants Soviet style communism, including actual communist. Yet its abundantly clear that the current capitalist system is heading for a massive collapse both economically and environmentally. Capitalism has run its course, we need something much better.
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Old Yesterday, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Madison, WI
4,855 posts, read 1,655,150 times
Reputation: 1066
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Consumers do not decide where their money goes. They decide what organization they choose to work with but do not have any say in how the surplus is spent. Nor do they have much say in the business process unto which this economy works. You think all of those thousands upon thousands of factory workers in the Rust Belt wanted to send their job to China? Imagine how different it would be for the people of that region if they had an actual say in the decision making of the company they work for. You think they would have sent away their own jobs? Our economic system is tyrannical upon examination. Americans spend most of their lives at work and most companies are run like an authoritarian dictatorship. If you send most of your life in a state of authoritarianism can you really claim to live in a democracy?

Communism doesn't advocate for a centrally planned economy, again people are confusing it with Soviet Leninism. Communism wanted the means of productions in all industries to be owned and controlled by the workers, essentially a co-op. It never desired for the state to control the economy.
Well first, they aren't the factory workers' jobs, and I don't think they should be. Entrepreneurs start a business, and if they have customers who like their product or service they earn money, and then they expand...so they say "Hey, I'll give you some of the money we earn if you do X". The person being hired isn't entitled to that job... it's up to the business to offer the job to whoever they want, including people in other countries.

Second, why don't the workers start their own factory and run it themselves if they believe that's the ideal arrangement? Why do they deserve an equal say over the business that the entrepreneur worked to establish?

Third, the default setting for most of human history has been poverty. The fact that so much capital/wealth has been generated is what allowed people to have any leisure time, better working conditions, etc. For example, if you went back in time when the current amount of wealth didn't exist yet, you'd see people working non-stop just to survive. Same with undeveloped countries even today. You can't legislate them out of poverty...the only cure is generating more wealth/capital.

Everyday people in developed countries today are so much wealthier than anyone living a century or two ago, and they COULD choose to have those old living standards and work way less, but why don't they? Because they prefer working 40 hours a week and getting more money.

But I will say, I'm all for people trying out co-ops and communist arrangements, as long as everyone involved is doing to by choice. There could be some interesting success stories, but I'd a) want to see it, and b) never want a whole population forced into it.
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