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Old Yesterday, 09:08 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,254 posts, read 671,909 times
Reputation: 2351

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Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
But I will say, I'm all for people trying out co-ops and communist arrangements, as long as everyone involved is doing to by choice. There could be some interesting success stories, but I'd a) want to see it, and b) never want a whole population forced into it.
Co-op's have done extremely well over the last 100 years. One of the most famous of them is the company REI, which is owned by the customers and has done extremely well for themselves. They are one of the few box stores these days which report consistent annual growth. REI's board of directors are voted on by REI members. They are limited to only 3 years on the board and have a take home cap on their annual salary. REI is an example of the type of companies we should see dominating the market in the coming decades.

I am a staunch socialist but would never want in enforced on anyone. Ideally the American public would see that its a much better option for them and vote in socialist parties democratically. Socialism is about creating democracy in the workplace, so it would be counter intuitive to force people into in any undemocratic fashion.
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Old Yesterday, 09:11 PM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,424 posts, read 14,160,466 times
Reputation: 6563
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmexman View Post
we dont have pure capitalism....we have crony-capitalism..ie corporatism.... aka fascism, a leftist ideology, aka socialism lite
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Old Yesterday, 09:27 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,211 posts, read 9,830,063 times
Reputation: 9826
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Co-op's have done extremely well over the last 100 years. One of the most famous of them is the company REI, which is owned by the customers and has done extremely well for themselves. They are one of the few box stores these days which report consistent annual growth. REI's board of directors are voted on by REI members. They are limited to only 3 years on the board and have a take home cap on their annual salary. REI is an example of the type of companies we should see dominating the market in the coming decades.

I am a staunch socialist but would never want in enforced on anyone. Ideally the American public would see that its a much better option for them and vote in socialist parties democratically. Socialism is about creating democracy in the workplace, so it would be counter intuitive to force people into in any undemocratic fashion.
If a socialist like yourself is willing to engage with the State then I don't see how us anarcho-capitalists would be left alone. The State is involuntary and has a monopoly of force.

As T0103E noted, it should be voluntary and I too would be interested to see the results (under the condition that there is no State) but color me skeptical that force wouldn't be initiated against me at some point.
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Old Yesterday, 09:28 PM
 
61 posts, read 14,577 times
Reputation: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
Uncontrolled capitalism is evil. There has to be a healthy balance or uncontrolled consumerism and greed for money takes over. Too much emphasis on money, money, money. Work, work, work.

The greed is on both ends. If the average person didn't want more than he/she could afford, then the capitalist would not have the endless supply of people willing to work long hours and multiple jobs. Very few people really work multiple jobs for survival, they work for $1000 phones, fancy meals and clothes, luxury cars and to have more than their friends do. People have always worked harder for wants than needs. There are some that work due to illnesses or other hardships, but most work to keep ahead of others. And as long as they will, there will be people figuring out new ways to get their money.

Humans by nature are competitive and greedy. They see it, they want it. Don't blame the capitalist for this, it is human nature. But don't think for a minute people will really be happier under any form of socialism/communism. It is a system designed to benefit those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom. The worlds shortest book was titled, Successful Socialist Nations.
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Old Yesterday, 09:29 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,211 posts, read 9,830,063 times
Reputation: 9826
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
we dont have pure capitalism....we have crony-capitalism..ie corporatism.... aka fascism, a leftist ideology, aka socialism lite
It's not limited to the Left/Team Blue/Dems/Liberals.

The Right/Team Red/Repubs/Cons are every bit the crony capitalists, corporatists, fascists as their peers under the umbrella of statism.
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Old Yesterday, 10:14 PM
 
9,174 posts, read 5,659,788 times
Reputation: 3896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelogo View Post
While it is true that a higher minimum wage will result in less jobs, all the explanation and reference to Ayn Rand is complete nonsense. The reason is really quite simple: shareholders will continue to expect ever higher profits. It has nothing to do with the 'supply and demand of jobs'. This is just a myth a lot of people has come to believe. The prove is that real wages continue to stagnate despite the supposedly record low unemployment.
Don’t claim continued wage stagnation in-spite of the very recent gains in employment numbers as some sort of proof that “supply and demand” is a myth. It only reveals your lack of understanding of basic economic realities. Surplus of goods causes prices to fall for that which is in surplus. That’s a reality that no knowledgeable person would dispute. That same principle holds true for labor. Argue that, and we can dismiss you to the forum on Sesame Street, where your opinions might gain better traction.

Quote:
As for capitalism vs socialism. There is no question that capitalism is superior, but not by far. Although socialism is doomed by itself, capitalism leads to huge misery and death, just far from where the capitalists are. Capitalists have made use, and continue to make use, of the most powerful military so that other countries are forced to adopt policies which benefit western capitalists. So countries far away are forced to buy dollars (in order to trade) t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ the fed p̶r̶i̶n̶t̶ creates at will.
Totally backwards. Communism has led to huge misery and massive death, while capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty, and produced more benefits to greater numbers of people than any system in history. There is simply no comparison, and we have history, not theory, as evidence.

Quote:
I have given an example nobody can even respond to. We all know about the hundreds of thousands of deaths caused by opposing capitalism in Latin America last century,
We all know nothing of the sort. What we all know is that there was massive suffering in Central America due to communist take overs, and civil wars fighting those communists. We know first hand from exiled folks who had their property and wealth confiscated by corrupt communist regimes.

But make no mistake, the capitalist economic system is neither responsible for, nor necessitates the type of “crony capitalism” that is really more reflective of authoritarianism, with exploitation by means of force. Don’t confuse the two.

Quote:
but one recent example really brings the point home. Chiquita, the banana company, admitted and was fined a few years ago for funding paramilitary organizations in Colombia listed by the US as terrorist organizations. They kill people who oppose their plans or dare to form unions demanding higher wages.
And the same type of strong armed corruption has existed for as long as humans have been on earth, which still has no direct association with a capitalist system. It’s simply persons of power behaving poorly, which can and does happen in virtually every place where power rules without proper policing.

Quote:
Very easy to talk about the greatness of capitalism without talking about the sanctions, wars and suffering that ensures the money keeps flowing your way.
You’re referencing imperialism, not capitalism.
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Old Yesterday, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Southern California
324 posts, read 331,976 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by miquel_westano View Post
It is a system designed to benefit those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom.
Sounds like the capitalism we have here in the United States of AmeriKKKa.
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Old Yesterday, 10:53 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,254 posts, read 671,909 times
Reputation: 2351
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Totally backwards. Communism has led to huge misery and massive death, while capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty, and produced more benefits to greater numbers of people than any system in history. There is simply no comparison, and we have history, not theory, as evidence.
It also created and spurred the Atlantic slave trade which is one of worst atrocities in human history.

As for lifting people out of poverty, it could be argued that it was communist governments who are responsible for the two largest migrations out of poverty in human history. China and Russia. Russia went from the poorest nation in Europe at the turn of the 20th century to the world's second superpower in the span of only 45 years, most of which occurred under communism.
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Old Yesterday, 10:55 PM
Status: "NEVER try to ride the angriest bull in the pen." (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Dallas, TX
4,136 posts, read 2,158,362 times
Reputation: 3876
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmexman View Post
Sadly.

We need a communist revolution.
No we don't. And I'm well-established as begin FAR from conservative on this board.

Communism (actual, not rhetorical) is government seizure of wealth-generating properties (i.e. the sources of income - from farms and mines all the way up to banks and the highest-tech level industries), and I mean all types of property rights - then redistributing the fruits of that labor equally among all people -- at least in theory. Nevertheless, by rhetoric at least, the self-proclaimed Socialist-as-a-bridge-to-communism countries proclaimed this as a national goal and urged foreign revolutionaries to do the same. Anyway, on to why it doesn't work.

* Governments are too distant from the markets they serve to know what the people demand and even what they need ("distant" in a social, not geographic, sense).

* Fails to see there's a difference between gross productivity of goods and services and gross value. They measure "success" based on productivity alone, not the popular demand of the goods. Thus it wastes its productivity by extracting and producing goods few people want or even need.

* With full employment as a goal, the workers have limited incentive at most to produce more and/or (usually both) higher quality goods.

* People with good ideas have to jump through more hoops in order to get official ministry approval for their ideas (whereas under healthy forms of capitalism, a person with sufficient funds, experience, and expertise simply has to convince the privately owned bank to give them a loan). Under "aspiring communism", banks, as wholly state-run entities, have practically no connection to the financial success or failure of the borrower - and even that assumes there would be such banks that lend out money in the first place (more often than not, it wasn't the case).

* Political connections, not merit and results, are the main vehicles to promotion. Not surprising if the government owns it.

* Governments, as monopolies under "aspiring-to-communism" systems, inherent inability to go bankrupt (barring extreme cases) reduces incentive to improve the quality of goods and management.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Supachai View Post
Where has communism been successfully implemented?

Would you like doing forced labor in a job that is chosen for you?
A minor nitpick about your second line. In the USSR, at least, you could choose your career, although there was often a mismatch between (adequate) training and your actual career due to the same mismatch of supply and demand in goods also applying to the labor market. Which is another reason communism has not been successfully implemented anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
we dont have pure capitalism....we have crony-capitalism..ie corporatism.... aka fascism, a leftist ideology, aka socialism lite
No, the Nazis Were NOT Socialists (over 300 posts devoted to this topic back a few months ago), should be sufficient to answer this one -- including the video in the OP. Suffice to say that if the Nazis actually were socialist, Hitler's rise in the party shoved any socialist aspect of Naziism into the ditch by Hitler himself - for the sake of political expediency gained from getting Big Business on his side. Even if they were socialist in some sense at first, it certainly wasn't in the sense of being pro-labor, pro-diversity, etc. of the modern Social Democractic parties (including the Bernie/AOC wing of the US Democratic Party).
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Old Today, 05:09 AM
 
6,426 posts, read 2,731,887 times
Reputation: 2365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_N_1962 View Post
The underlying basis of any economic system is human beings and human beings are flawed, therefore any system will be flawed. What you are trying to do is make it less flawed. I agree that a totally unregulated free market is probably not the best solution. Communism is probably the worst solution.

Communists use the government to force their will on others and kill to get what they want.
Capitalists use the government to force their will on others and kill to get what they want.

Everytime I bring up throwing out the capitalist corporate and banking lobbyists that have a heavy presence in DC, the response is no, we cannot do that.

How come the capitalists jumped in bed with Communist China?

Last edited by J746NEW; Today at 05:19 AM..
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