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Old 08-13-2019, 05:03 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,617 posts, read 9,935,427 times
Reputation: 9917

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornintheSprings View Post
Work or starve thats not voluntary
It's reality.

Sorry that the paradigm of life landed on your head.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:54 AM
 
52,564 posts, read 42,245,013 times
Reputation: 32800
So in case some people missed the irony, after story after story pushing for higher minimum wage, worker pay stagnation, CEO pay.....the person arguing against Trumps immigration changes argues that we need these workers because we can pay them very little and the NPR interviewer that pushed back constantly on Trumps representatives spin....didn't say anything.

Nothing like "Well shouldn't these jobs pay higher wages" or "Wouldn't higher wages for these jobs incent more American workers" or "Wouldn't less labor supply help counter the wage stagnation we've seen over the last 20 years for the working poor".

To me, it was a tough but fair interview and then the original interviewee left and person designated to challenge their points came on and faced zero blow back despite saying some pretty ridiculous stuff. The entire exchange as a result came across as comically biased.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:26 AM
 
15,627 posts, read 8,021,889 times
Reputation: 8068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I'm shocked, shocked I say that you would interject your partisanship into blaming the whole illegal immigration issue on your rival political opponents.

I mean seriously, come on now.
LOL I don't have a rival political opponent. I like some conservatives and I dislike many liberals.

But where I lived in GA the main people hiring illegal immigrants on chicken farms, like the ones that have been on the news recently in MS were in heavily conservative/republican districts and many of those factory farmers/chicken processors were big supporters of the Republican party and interestingly the state law passed to require e-verify was supported heavily by the minority Democrats/liberals there and the more moderate/sane conservatives. They outnumbered the extreme right on this issue and it passed. There were a lot of conservative business owners who were upset, like my boss and her husband.

For me, it is interesting what goes on in the Republican party internally on this issues. What is stated by many lay members in public in regards to being against these immigrants, is typically the opposite view of many of the Republicans who hold office and let themselves be swayed by the commercial business owners in conservative areas.

I'll note as well that just as that is interesting, liberals have their interesting inner workings as well when it comes to social justice with what they say versus what they "do." This and other reasons is why I don't think our major parties are all that much different. They talk a good talk, but they walk a different one on various topics/issues that are supposedly important to them/their constituents.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
4,449 posts, read 1,869,068 times
Reputation: 3337
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
It's reality.
Nope your stuck in the past
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:35 AM
 
1,531 posts, read 429,756 times
Reputation: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainrose View Post
What most people donít realize is that we taxpayers subsidize the cheap labor for these businesses.
We pay for the free schooling and extra teachers for their children, we pay for any welfare benefits they use, we pay for all the immigration lawyers and beaurocrats to deal with them, plus any jail or prison time.
Immigrants send $35 billion a year out of this country as remittances to their families.
Imagine if that money stayed here and was taxed.....
Who said they werenít taxed?
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
22,353 posts, read 21,971,431 times
Reputation: 21758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstarling View Post
Who said they werenít taxed?
how is money being spent in Mexico contributing to the US tax revenue?
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Old 08-15-2019, 03:33 PM
 
7,256 posts, read 1,574,372 times
Reputation: 17741
I am a very frequent poster, and make no secret of the fact that I am against ILLEGAL immigration and for an increase in the minimum wage for ALL adult workers. I also believe that many jobs are not wanted by native Americans, and that if we didn't have a large population of people here illegally, many of us would "suffer". We would not have a great assortment of fresh produce affordably priced, nor would we have almost anything else that involves mostly unskilled manual labor because it would either cost a heck of a lot more, or not be available at all.

It is because of the above that I would like to see people from other other countries encouraged to come here, but to come here legally -- and to encourage this, I would like see them paid enough so that they can have adequate shelter and good food, and to give them the chance to improve their socioeconomic status as much as their abilities and ambition allow.

Yes, it is true that if the minimum wage was increased, we would all probably have to pay more for many things and cut down on some luxuries -- but I think that most of us could do without such goodies as the latest in Smartphones.

Last edited by katharsis; 08-15-2019 at 04:18 PM..
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:39 AM
 
52,564 posts, read 42,245,013 times
Reputation: 32800
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
I am a very frequent poster, and make no secret of the fact that I am against ILLEGAL immigration and for an increase in the minimum wage for ALL adult workers. I also believe that many jobs are not wanted by native Americans, and that if we didn't have a large population of people here illegally, many of us would "suffer". We would not have a great assortment of fresh produce affordably priced, nor would we have almost anything else that involves mostly unskilled manual labor because it would either cost a heck of a lot more, or not be available at all.

It is because of the above that I would like to see people from other other countries encouraged to come here, but to come here legally -- and to encourage this, I would like see them paid enough so that they can have adequate shelter and good food, and to give them the chance to improve their socioeconomic status as much as their abilities and ambition allow.

Yes, it is true that if the minimum wage was increased, we would all probably have to pay more for many things and cut down on some luxuries -- but I think that most of us could do without such goodies as the latest in Smartphones.
The bottom line is that we are turning a blind eye to illegal immigration because it greatly helps those of us that get stuff cheaper (wealthier, more educated) but don't have job competition from them....while screwing over both our own poorest and least educated citizens with huge wage pressure while exploiting illegals.

You can move the min wage to $15 all you want. Businesses will just automate or use more illegal labor paid under the table.

That will leave the poor that can land the $15 job in better shape and those that can't? Virtually unemployable unless also willing to work off the books.
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:05 AM
 
7,256 posts, read 1,574,372 times
Reputation: 17741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
The bottom line is that we are turning a blind eye to illegal immigration because it greatly helps those of us that get stuff cheaper (wealthier, more educated) but don't have job competition from them....while screwing over both our own poorest and least educated citizens with huge wage pressure while exploiting illegals.

You can move the min wage to $15 all you want. Businesses will just automate or use more illegal labor paid under the table.

That will leave the poor that can land the $15 job in better shape and those that can't? Virtually unemployable unless also willing to work off the books.
I am certainly no economist, but I do know that the employment situation is certainly not stable, and that there have been many periods when many, MANY people were unemployed, and not just the unskilled. However, leaving that point aside (even though it is an important point), the only people now and most of the time who cannot find any kind of paid employment are mostly those who are unemployable (due to disabilities or personal circumstances of one kind or another) and those who refuse to work. Yes, automation will almost certainly lead to more people being unemployed, but there are programs in place for those who are poor. (Even though, granted, people receiving government assistance certainly do not usually live a luxurious life.)

If employers are forced to pay more and if there is no longer such a thing as "illegal immigrants", of course they will raise the prices of the goods and/or services they offer. However, it is true that that does not address the problem of what to do with those people who just cannot find paid employment for themselves. In that case, should we offer something like a UBI that is, say, 10-20% less than a 40-hour job at a decent minimum wage would pay, so that people will not be tempted to just "be lazy", but will still allow them to have adequate food and shelter? I am personally against UBI at this point in time, but I can see it being implemented if and when the unemployment rate ever goes above 10% or so and stays there.

To repeat, I am no economist, but I am interested in reading the opinions of people who are and also from people who are more educated in such matters than I am!

Last edited by katharsis; 08-16-2019 at 09:33 AM..
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:10 AM
 
52,564 posts, read 42,245,013 times
Reputation: 32800
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
I am certainly no economist, but I do know that the employment situation is certainly not stable, and that there have been many periods when many, MANY people were unemployed, and not just the unskilled. However, leaving that point aside (even though it is an important point), the only people now and most of the time who cannot find any kind of paid employment are mostly those who are unemployable (due to disabilities or personal circumstances of one kind or another) and those who refuse to work. Yes, automation will almost certainly lead to more people being unemployed, but there are programs in place for those who are poor. (Even though, granted, people receiving government assistance certainly do not usually live a luxurious life.)

If employers are forced to pay more and if there is no longer such a thing as "illegal immigrants", of course they will raise the prices of the goods and/or services they offer. However, it is true that that does not address the problem of what to do with those people who just cannot find paid employment for themselves. In that case, should we offer something like a UBI that is, say, 10-20% less than a 40-hour job at a decent minimum wage would pay, so that people will not be tempted to just "be lazy", but will still allow them to have adequate food and shelter? I am personally against UBI at this point in time, but I can see it being implemented if and when the unemployment rate ever goes above 10% or so and stays there.

To repeat, I am no economist, but I am interested in reading the opinions of people who are and also from people who are more educated in such matters than I am!
Well, to be truly unemployable you need to either be impaired due to things like mental retardation, stroke or a host of other afflictions that would generally get you some sort of disability. The other would be drugs\mental illness which often lead you to living in some sort of shelter or under a bridge somewhere.

There can be programs to help the afflicted but handing them money via something like UBI seems like a bad idea but I defer on effectiveness to anyone that is involved in the trenches of the topic like social workers etc. I believe that the UBI experiments to date have largely failed.

I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It's nice to have one on a topic and not have people start throwing around political tropes and other stupidity.
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