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Old Today, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
9,215 posts, read 2,821,312 times
Reputation: 7053

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
You are giving opinion about me. That's not an answer. It's ad hominem.

How about answering the question. You are a willing participant in comparisons. So apply the same parameters to this comparison. Oh that's right. You don't care to. We get it.
Once again ... you deliberately chose the worst city you could think of, thinking you were making a point. But you aren't.

Copenhagen is more liberal than Baltimore, and Denmark is more liberal than the US. Thus, your attempt has failed because it actually proves our point, not yours.

The more liberal city, Copenhagen, is the better and nicer one of the two. Sorry, you lose.

So your question was, What went wrong with Baltimore? The answer isn't "It Became Too Liberal." Because becoming liberal did not turn Copenhagen into Baltimore.
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Old Today, 01:51 PM
 
16,046 posts, read 4,235,579 times
Reputation: 11410
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
So what went wrong in Baltimore compared to Copenhagen the capital of Denmark?
That comparison breaks everyone of the fallacious comparisons being made by you guys.
Actually, it buttresses the point, but I don't expect you to be able to think deep enough to get it.....

1. Our economy has no planning.....so offshoring destroyed jobs in major cities as well as our core industries...all for bean-counters.

2. Maryland, being a slave state, has not exactly been the hotbed of progressive ideals.....although things are changing now, 400 years of history does not get un-done in a couple decades.

In the USA we leave places (brownfields, mines, entire states, people, etc.) to ROT after we are finished using them up.

I appreciate you putting a ! on my point.....

This is one of the big things I first noticed about New England. People make a stand....and stay for many generations (see: Denmark) and they leave their inheritances to the local Park or to other things that are timeless......educational institutions, etc.

Many other places in this country, including the states I mentioned and Baltimore, etc. are the result of exploitation. Without Baltimore and Detroit your Russian neighbors wouldn't have been able to beat back the Nazis. But the corporate bean-counters didn't care about that.....they exported all the jobs and we - as a people - let them do it and leave our cities to die.

Many are coming back....no thanks to the government or planning. Pittsburgh is booming....Philly and NY, etc. after being left for dead are now booming.

That's not to say I want to live there (I'm from Philly), but lots of people do...
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Old Today, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Southern West Virginia
477 posts, read 137,046 times
Reputation: 321
So much hate on WV in this thread. Yeah, we’ve got our problems, but there are also just as many problems with the urban poor. It is just considered more acceptable to rag on the rural poor.
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Old Today, 01:54 PM
 
16,046 posts, read 4,235,579 times
Reputation: 11410
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Population density of Denmark is 3X that of Kentucky, and 4X of that of West Virginia.

Best to compare the cities.
Actually, using the "C-D" metrics, the urban Denmark should be MUCH more of a sewer then the beautiful blessed lands in the states here.....where many people dump their trash right off the side of a ravine (yes, I've seen it many a time).....why not? Lots of room. And, the water is already polluted by the mine tailings, coal ash and other stuff.
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Old Today, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Southern West Virginia
477 posts, read 137,046 times
Reputation: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
tell us what percentage of people out of those 7 million are miners?

1%?

2%?

my calc says less than 1/4 of 1%

why even talk about it?
Because the local economies depend upon the coal industry. For every 1 coal mining job, there are another 10 or more jobs created. If the coal job goes away, so do those jobs. The railroad is an example of an industry highly dependent upon the coal industry (in WV anyway).

I don’t think the coal industry is blameless. The coal operators have and do abuse miners, and they may disobey environmental regulations. However, when you are able to make good money for your family as a miner, making money in a legal way, you are naturally going to want to sustain that. I can’t blame them.

Like I said before, it is not a simple issue. I can see both sides to the problem, which is why I say it is such a difficult issue.
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Old Today, 01:57 PM
 
16,046 posts, read 4,235,579 times
Reputation: 11410
Quote:
Originally Posted by user491 View Post
So much hate on WV in this thread. Yeah, we’ve got our problems, but there are also just as many problems with the urban poor. It is just considered more acceptable to rag on the rural poor.
It's not about hate - it's about using actual statistics to show that we can do better. Folks like myself want universal health care, better planning and things so that the birthright of the people in WV and KY and elsewhere reflects both their resource wealth..and the general wealth of our nation.

If our social and economic policies are so superior, why aren't the results the same? That's the issue here.

Now, if your answer is "we want to die young and travel to rural health clinics in tents 2 hours away once every couple years"...well, there is not much I can say.
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Old Today, 02:00 PM
 
46,302 posts, read 18,317,883 times
Reputation: 19306
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Actually, it buttresses the point, but I don't expect you to be able to think deep enough to get it.....
So you start with insulting me. Do you think that I'm going to give much heed to what you have to say after that? Calling someone too stupid to get it, isn't a hallmark of argument based on logic or fact.

You have a hypocritical double standard here. You cherrypick to disparate places to make a fallacious comparison to make a political point. i.e. People in a Republican state are Deplorable. But then when called out to do the same with a Democrat city, you can only insult me for pointing it out.

Your topic fails.
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Old Today, 02:01 PM
 
971 posts, read 385,244 times
Reputation: 1799
Quote:
Originally Posted by user491 View Post
So much hate on WV in this thread. Yeah, we’ve got our problems, but there are also just as many problems with the urban poor. It is just considered more acceptable to rag on the rural poor.
Not really. It's just that this forum is populated with conservatives who often rag on the urban poor, using cities like Baltimore and Chicago as microcosms of everything that's wrong with America. The rural poor get dragged into the conversation as a reminder that welfare culture isn't just an urban thing.

"How come nobody rags on the urban poor?" is not a valid complaint here. Just scroll through a few threads and you'll get your fill.
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Old Today, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Southern West Virginia
477 posts, read 137,046 times
Reputation: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
It's not about hate - it's about using actual statistics to show that we can do better. Folks like myself want universal health care, better planning and things so that the birthright of the people in WV and KY and elsewhere reflects both their resource wealth..and the general wealth of our nation.

If our social and economic policies are so superior, why aren't the results the same? That's the issue here.

Now, if your answer is "we want to die young and travel to rural health clinics in tents 2 hours away once every couple years"...well, there is not much I can say.
I’m completely in favor of universal health care. I think it should be paid for by a national sales tax, that way everyone pays into it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
Not really. It's just that this forum is populated with conservatives who often rag on the urban poor, using cities like Baltimore and Chicago as microcosms of everything that's wrong with America. The rural poor get dragged into the conversation as a reminder that welfare culture isn't just an urban thing.

"How come nobody rags on the urban poor?" is not a valid complaint here. Just scroll through a few threads and you'll get your fill.
True. People do that. It is equally as ridiculous. We West Virginians are sensitive to criticism because we get so much negative treatment from everyone on the national level.
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Old Today, 02:06 PM
 
16,046 posts, read 4,235,579 times
Reputation: 11410
Quote:
Originally Posted by user491 View Post
Because the local economies depend upon the coal industry. For every 1 coal mining job, there are another 10 or more jobs created. If the coal job goes away, so do those jobs. The railroad is an example of an industry highly dependent upon the coal industry (in WV anyway).

I don’t think the coal industry is blameless. The coal operators have and do abuse miners, and they may disobey environmental regulations. However, when you are able to make good money for your family as a miner, making money in a legal way, you are naturally going to want to sustain that. I can’t blame them.

Like I said before, it is not a simple issue. I can see both sides to the problem, which is why I say it is such a difficult issue.
There really isn't that issue since there isn't that coal....any longer, and automation and strip mining would cut the jobs down vastly even if we started taking out the more difficult coal.

It's hard to imagine 10 jobs being supported on one 60K salary (average)...can't see how the economics work out. All the tracks were laid long ago and the rolling stock exists....probably an over-supply.

This is a separate issue but the point stands - that "the coal economy" isn't even a speck when compared against other and newer industries.

A difference discussion could be had on the solutions.....but I'd say

1. Make lands into state and national parks with an eye toward cleaning up our messes for the far future.
2. Invest in the people - if that means paying for them to train, move (even in-state), universal health care, better food sources, etc.....education.

This is my point about planning. In the US we just fight every and any regulation...someone always makes money off misery or the status quo. In Denmark they work together to plan what is best. This is how they became the first in big Wind Farms, in District Heating (where the entire towns are heated by one clean plant) and in many other things. This cannot happen when it is every person and corporation for themselves.

Here is another difference. Talk to most Danes and you will find that they spent years overseas. You simply cannot get a decent job in Denmark without worldwide experience....and I'm not talking next door in Germany. They are all over the world....

That's a MAJOR difference.
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