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Old 08-16-2019, 04:48 PM
 
16,069 posts, read 4,248,953 times
Reputation: 11425

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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
No, your link says that he used the term 'democratic socialism,' not 'social democrat.' The two are not the same. The former is socialism ('collective ownership of the means of production'), but just attained via democratic process. The latter is capitalism but with an extensive safety net, which is what Denmark has.

See the website of 'Democratic Socialists of America' for more on democratic socialism. They are true blue, full-fledged socialists. Bernie is, or at least used to be, a member.
Sounds like McCarthyism. You are defining him not on his lifetime of actions...including decades in politics. You are not defining him on his millions of words spoken in public or legislation. You are saying "well, there is a missing ism and he was a club member"....

Sorry, not buying it. I'm no Bernie Bro but he is well inside the mainstream of US Politics - and, in fact, if you didn't put labels on his even you might agree with him on many policy items (for example, he was America first for many decades).....he's for decent pay, the middle class, fewer wars for oil and aggression, etc. etc.

You know...conservative things.
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:51 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,696 posts, read 656,401 times
Reputation: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
In the end I don't care what the web site says either - or the Danish PM...words are word.

Bernie has been in political office and Ben and Jerrys, although started in his town, aren't state owned....
In effect you're saying that in the end, you don't care about being accurate. It's kind of tough to have a debate with you on that basis.

You can't define a politician's place on the political spectrum by the policies enacted in his state. Washington state, where I live, has no income tax, and until just last year, fairly lax gun control. That does not make Gov Inslee a conservative.

You define him by what he calls himself--as the James Bond link shows, Bernie calls himself a 'democratic socialist.' And for about the 3rd time, he is, or at least was, a member of the Democratic Socialists of America.

This is not complicated. It should have been settled multiple posts ago.
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
9,250 posts, read 2,828,777 times
Reputation: 7063
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
No, your link says that he used the term 'democratic socialism,' not 'social democrat.' The two are not the same. The former is socialism ('collective ownership of the means of production'), but just attained via democratic process. The latter is capitalism but with an extensive safety net, which is what Denmark has.

See the website of 'Democratic Socialists of America' for more on democratic socialism. They are true blue, full-fledged socialists. Bernie is, or at least used to be, a member.
Bernie is not a member of the "Democratic Socialists of America" party. What he has referred to is explicitly something similar to, well, Denmark. He has even explicitly said so:

Bernie Sanders' American Dream is in Denmark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders
"I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway," Sanders said, "and learn what they have accomplished for their working people."
Got it? He has explicitly said his model is Scandinavian countries like Denmark. So whatever you want to call what Denmark has, is what Bernie wants.

Not that I particularly care, since I'm not a Bernie fan. But clearly you are over-stating what he desires.
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:58 PM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
30,243 posts, read 16,800,844 times
Reputation: 22755
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
'Social Democrat' is not the same as 'socialist.' Granted many Americans don't know what these two terms mean, but if someone 'considered' them to be the same, they'd be wrong.

In a 2015 talk at Harvard, the Danish Prime Minister actually chided Bernie Sanders for claiming that Denmark is socialist. The PM said that it is not.

Bernie can be fuzzy about this, but he does appear to be a full-fledged socialist (collective ownership of the means of production). He is member, or at least was, of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA, AOC's group). If you look at their site you'll see that they are full-fledged socialists, not social democrats.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/54169100-post9.html

Someone needs to let our Dear Leader in on that little secret. He thinks everyone is a socialist.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:03 PM
 
879 posts, read 277,661 times
Reputation: 402
we have what 300 million potential customers in the US ?..as i said earlier Europe uses a slightly more humane form of capitalism..
1) i am betting in the geographically smaller Europe a corporation cant run to a tax haven state for a better deal..the corporations are by law paying more to/for local support be it municipality or Unions..
2) so i am thinking WE have our own different states paying out some form of corporate welfare and in effect cutting each others throats....this would be backed by those southern diehards of "states rights"...(same goes for the regional gun laws)


this is NOT rocket science
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
9,250 posts, read 2,828,777 times
Reputation: 7063
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post
Bernie is not a member of the "Democratic Socialists of America" party. What he has referred to is explicitly something similar to, well, Denmark. He has even explicitly said so:

Bernie Sanders' American Dream is in Denmark

Got it? He has explicitly said his model is Scandinavian countries like Denmark. So whatever you want to call what Denmark has, is what Bernie wants.

Not that I particularly care, since I'm not a Bernie fan. But clearly you are over-stating what he desires.
Here we go ... go to about 1:43 in the interview and he explicitly holds up Denmark and other Scandinavian countries as something he would like to emulate:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0u2FH5Bnk

So anybody who says that Denmark is capitalist, must call Bernie a capitalist, too. Even if it hurts to do so!
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:07 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,696 posts, read 656,401 times
Reputation: 1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post
Bernie is not a member of the "Democratic Socialists of America" party. What he has referred to is explicitly something similar to, well, Denmark. He has even explicitly said so:

Bernie Sanders' American Dream is in Denmark

Got it? He has explicitly said his model is Scandinavian countries like Denmark. So whatever you want to call what Denmark has, is what Bernie wants.

Not that I particularly care, since I'm not a Bernie fan. But clearly you are over-stating what he desires.
'Democratic Socialists of America' is not a party. If you read their stuff, they have expressly avoided the party approach. Bernie is, or was, a member. This is the org that AOC also belongs to.

At least according to what the Danish PM said, Bernie does not appear to understand very well what the Danish model really is. So when says that he wants to emulate the Denmark model, it's neither here nor there. It's like someone who speaks neither Russian nor German saying he prefers German over Russian.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:14 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,696 posts, read 656,401 times
Reputation: 1178
I note nobody responded to this post, instead preferring to go on wild goose chases, so I post it again. I'd like to know in particular what OP's explanation for it is....

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri
...
The GDP per Capita in Denmark is 58K - 38K in these two states. Put another way, Denmark has a GDP 50% higher.
https://marginalrevolution.com/margi...han-danes.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t
Of the Nordic groups, Danish-Americans have the highest per capita income, clocking in at $70,925.
Danish Americans have a $23,000 higher per capita income than Danes in Denmark. Why?
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:59 PM
Status: "Hey I thought this was the train to Margaritaville?" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
11,993 posts, read 15,627,347 times
Reputation: 12266
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
I note nobody responded to this post, instead preferring to go on wild goose chases, so I post it again. I'd like to know in particular what OP's explanation for it is....


https://marginalrevolution.com/margi...han-danes.html



Danish Americans have a $23,000 higher per capita income than Danes in Denmark. Why?
Because they are ship builders in Seattle?
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
9,250 posts, read 2,828,777 times
Reputation: 7063
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
'Democratic Socialists of America' is not a party. If you read their stuff, they have expressly avoided the party approach. Bernie is, or was, a member. This is the org that AOC also belongs to.

At least according to what the Danish PM said, Bernie does not appear to understand very well what the Danish model really is. So when says that he wants to emulate the Denmark model, it's neither here nor there. It's like someone who speaks neither Russian nor German saying he prefers German over Russian.
The Danish PM was not really arguing with Sanders, he was making sure the public understood that what Sanders calls "social democracy" is not what they would call "socialism." They're arguing over terminology only, not policies or methods.

So once again, what Bernie Sanders wants is something like Denmark. If you think Sanders thinks they don't have plenty of capitalism in Denmark, then, well, you aren't paying attention. Whatever you want to call what Denmark has - be it "socialism" or "social democracy" or "democratic socialism" or something else - is unimportant, if not irrelevant. Sanders has said he wants something like Denmark.

It's even bizarre I'm defending somebody I don't even like, but when somebody is basically saying Sanders is a communist when clearly he isn't, then yes, I'm going to defend somebody I don't even like.
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