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Old 08-27-2019, 06:47 PM
 
5,467 posts, read 3,099,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
The AGW "evidence" has been suspect due to manipulation of temperature measurements over the last century. Inconvenient temperature measurement which refute the idea of AGW have been discarded or changed in order to fit the AGW hypothesis.


However............................. they forgot to do something.


The gas equation PV= nRT shows that with increase temperature, there is an expected increase in pressure. One sees the converse of this at higher altitudes in which lower temperatures occur the higher one goes. Higher temps should result in higher pressures, but the opposite was observed and this was a long term trend over 100 years.


The AGW crowd forgot to change the barometric pressure measurements as well.


https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.co....1002/joc.3546


Measurements of pressure over the arctic from the late 1800s to the present actually show a decline in average barometric pressure. Of course, the opposite would be observed if temps were actually increasing.


Looks like a mistake on the part of the warmers; look for them to go back and try to change the barometric pressure data as well to cover their tracks!
The gas equation PV= nRT shows that with increase temperature, there is an expected increase in pressure.

Or an increase in volume or both, but okay sure.

One sees the converse of this at higher altitudes in which lower temperatures occur the higher one goes.

What if I told you that while the temperature decreases until the top of the troposphere, it rises dramatically as you go higher up through the stratosphere. It's almost like the ideal gas law can't be simplistically applied to the entire atmosphere of the Earth. (I don't even think the decrease in temperature as you go up the troposphere has anything to do with it.)

This guy learned literally the most basic physics law about gases in high school chem and decided he was an atmospheric scientist. This is the worst kind of conspiracy theorist: the kind that doesn't thrive on a mistrust of authority but rather a need to feel intellectually superior to others. See Dunning-Kruger effect.

"The gas equation PV= nRT shows that with increase temperature, there is an expected increase in pressure..."

Whoever posted that rant ignored the role volume plays in the equation. Pressure would increase with temperature ONLY if volume is constant or changes by a correspondingly lesser amount. Earth's atmosphere expands and contracts with ease in the vacuum of space.

The others are right. This whole thing is conspiracy theory bull by those who don't understand science as much as they think they do.
________
Asked some good folks about the statement.
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Houston
5,481 posts, read 2,787,794 times
Reputation: 3419
I literally LOL every time some global warming denialist comes up with this "evidence" of theirs that they consistently cling to. I can't say much for them but they know how to entertain the rest of us!


I say this to the denialists: please keep it coming. The science community loves your "evidence"...LOL
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:00 PM
 
3,317 posts, read 955,054 times
Reputation: 1998
..and I literally LOL every time a climate scientist says it has to be this...because we can't explain it any other way
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:09 PM
 
2,668 posts, read 902,601 times
Reputation: 1867
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
"


4. The "container" of the atmosphere IS THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE. Are you suggesting that our atmosphere extends infinitely into space? We have this electromagnetic force called GRAVITY that helps to maintain our atmosphere stable and provides for an atmosphere, and atmospheric total volume, which does change, but in absolute volume is constant over time........
So ,"Dude", do a little reading, learn a little physics, then come back and chat when you are all grown up.

There is obviously no absolute boundary to the atmosphere. No magical point where you cross from atmosphere into space. So in a sense, yes it does extend infinitely into space.

But before you lecture others i want you to admit that you completely misread the conclusions of the paper you cited to start this thread, and that pressure has increased slightly since the 1800's, which is consistent with warming.
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:50 PM
 
1,887 posts, read 636,748 times
Reputation: 1483
AGW is not a physics problem but one of political economy.

PV = nRT
(Political pressure)(Voter attention span) = (Number of carbon credits)(Real dollar value of a carbon credit)(Time until the world ends)

Given that supply and demand make the relationship between n and R an inverse one, and that voter attention span saturates at about 5 minutes, clearly the only way to extend the time until the world ends is to amp up the political pressure.
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Old 08-27-2019, 08:43 PM
 
16,835 posts, read 14,251,233 times
Reputation: 20739
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
"Dude"- did you ever take a PHYSICS class in your life? Boyle's Law is PHYSICS, not CHEMISTRY, as there is no chemical reaction.
What you posted is not Boyle’s law. It’s the ideal gas law. Boyle’s law deals only with the relationship between pressure and volume.


Chemistry is the study of chemicals, their behavior, properties, structure and so on, aka not just reactions. And yes, I have not only taken many physics and chemistry classes I have taught them. Oddly, enough unlike you I know the difference between Boyle’s law and the ideal gas law. Awkward.


Quote:
1. 99% of the atmosphere is in the first three layers and YES- temps decrease when you get higher in the atmosphere. Again- SEE BOYLE'S LAW. This is why it is cold on the top of Mt. Everest. But for you- pack light and wear a t-shirt- you will be fine. The thermosphere is hotter, but is so for relative exposure to radiation, not due to gas pressure.
Still not Boyle’s law. Boyle’s law requires constant temperature. Hard not to call someone a moron when they keep putting the wrong law in all caps.

As for the IDEAL GAS LAW (which is what you posted in your original) or more correctly Gay-Lussac's law, the relationship between temperature and pressure requires no input or outputs from the system. Think slowly here. Are there inputs of energy to the system? You mentioned one right above this. I have faith, you might just get this one.


Quote:
3. Mono0atomic gases? Nonsens- Boyle's Law is the "ideal gas law" but can AND IS applied quite routinely to compositional gas, such as AIR, which makes up the ATMOSPHERE.
Wait you REALLY think the ideal gas law and Boyle’s law are the same thing? Do yourself a favor and read your own equation.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/boyle.html

Boyle’s law is the relationship between pressure and volume at constant temperature. You literally have no idea what you are talking about. You posted the ideal gas law and that isn’t even the one you are referring to. You are referring to the relationship between temp and pressure which is neither the ideal gas law nor Boyle’s.

And no, the ideal gas law is literally about “ideal” gases. Here read this.

Real Gases

Pay close attention to assumption 3. The gases that make up the atmosphere are held together by Van der Waals. Literally changes the number of moles making the ideal gas law impossible to use to measure real gases with any accuracy in the atmosphere.
Quote:

4. The "container" of the atmosphere IS THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE. Are you suggesting that our atmosphere extends infinitely into space? We have this electromagnetic force called GRAVITY that helps to maintain our atmosphere stable and provides for an atmosphere, and atmospheric total volume, which does change, but in absolute volume is constant over time.
I am going to show this one to my students. “The container for the atmosphere is the atmosphere”? A whole new level of idiocy right there. Do you think there is some sort of actual barrier between the molecules that make up the atmosphere and space? We literally lose gases all the time. Helium is the example that springs to mind immediately. Meanwhile materials enter the atmosphere constantly. The notion that the atmosphere is in a container is ridiculous. For any of the gas laws to apply the system needs to be isolated. There is constant input and output to the atmosphere of both energy and matter.


Quote:
5. Again, 99% of our atmosphere is in the first three layers and those layers remain remarkably stable, despite small regional and temporal variations, the overall volume of the atmosphere has remained fairly constant- certainly over the time period in which the AGW cult is concerned with. The molar composition of our atmosphere up to 33,000 feet remains very constant.
Says the guy who doesn’t even know what Boyle’s law is or isn’t.




Quote:
So ,"Dude", do a little reading, learn a little physics, then come back and chat when you are all grown up.
I dunno man, I ready have a graduate degree in a multidisciplinary science, seems overkill at this point to “learn a little physics” from a guy who doesn’t even know the difference between the gas laws.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,948 posts, read 17,885,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
There HAS been an increase in pressure. It says so in the paper you cited.
Again-in an enclosed volume-with no heat transfer. Not an open container with no constrained volume.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,948 posts, read 17,885,188 times
Reputation: 15927
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post

Wait you REALLY think the ideal gas law and Boyle’s law are the same thing? Do yourself a favor and read your own equation.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/boyle.html

Boyle’s law is the relationship between pressure and volume at constant temperature. You literally have no idea what you are talking about. You posted the ideal gas law and that isn’t even the one you are referring to. You are referring to the relationship between temp and pressure which is neither the ideal gas law nor Boyle’s.
Boyle's Law is more properly a subset or derivative of the Ideal Gas Law.

PV=nRT. R is a constant, and for a fixed mass of a gas, n constant (number of moles of the gas).

Therefore P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2. If temperature is kept constant, T1=T2 the equation becomes P1V1=P2V2. Which is the expression of Boyle's Law as a formula.
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Old 08-27-2019, 10:16 PM
 
1,877 posts, read 1,023,374 times
Reputation: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
"Dude"- did you ever take a PHYSICS class in your life? Boyle's Law is PHYSICS, not CHEMISTRY, as there is no chemical reaction.


1. 99% of the atmosphere is in the first three layers and YES- temps decrease when you get higher in the atmosphere. Again- SEE BOYLE'S LAW. This is why it is cold on the top of Mt. Everest. But for you- pack light and wear a t-shirt- you will be fine. The thermosphere is hotter, but is so for relative exposure to radiation, not due to gas pressure.


2. The volume of the earth's atmosphere varies over short periods of time, but remains remarkably stable over longer time periods. This is what we call thermostatic equilibrium. I'm pretty sure they didn't cover that in 6th grade, so I don't expect you to know that. Gravity, of course, is the predominant factor in maintaining the volume of the earth's atmosphere, but there are regional and temporal variations.


3. Mono0atomic gases? Nonsens- Boyle's Law is the "ideal gas law" but can AND IS applied quite routinely to compositional gas, such as AIR, which makes up the ATMOSPHERE.


4. The "container" of the atmosphere IS THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE. Are you suggesting that our atmosphere extends infinitely into space? We have this electromagnetic force called GRAVITY that helps to maintain our atmosphere stable and provides for an atmosphere, and atmospheric total volume, which does change, but in absolute volume is constant over time.


5. Again, 99% of our atmosphere is in the first three layers and those layers remain remarkably stable, despite small regional and temporal variations, the overall volume of the atmosphere has remained fairly constant- certainly over the time period in which the AGW cult is concerned with. The molar composition of our atmosphere up to 33,000 feet remains very constant.




So ,"Dude", do a little reading, learn a little physics, then come back and chat when you are all grown up.



I'm impressed, did you really manage to do what no other physicist living or dead was able to achieve. Do tell.





In regards to the ideal gas law: even if completely applicable, alone it is not sufficient to make any of the conclusions you are making. For instance, as a simple exercise, you can assume isothermal atmosphere, and derive how pressure changes with height. Or you can assume linear drop of the temperature and solve it then, and so on.


Anyway, MCAT Physics does not make you an expert in Physics. Not even close.

Last edited by serger; 08-27-2019 at 10:27 PM..
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Old 08-28-2019, 06:07 AM
 
16,835 posts, read 14,251,233 times
Reputation: 20739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Boyle's Law is more properly a subset or derivative of the Ideal Gas Law.

PV=nRT. R is a constant, and for a fixed mass of a gas, n constant (number of moles of the gas).

Therefore P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2. If temperature is kept constant, T1=T2 the equation becomes P1V1=P2V2. Which is the expression of Boyle's Law as a formula.
While you maybe able to mathematically derive Boyle’s from the ideal that does not make them the same thing. It is also worth noting that the OP is specifically referring to changing temperature not constant which makes your derivation moot. He is specifically referring to the relationship between pressure and temperature which is still neither the ideal gas law nor Boyle’s but rather Gay Lussacs where P1/T1=P2/T2. Finally, Boyle’s and Gay Lussacs were used along with Charles to make the ideal gas law, so in terms of derivation they came first t lest scientifically.
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