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Old Yesterday, 01:19 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,722 posts, read 656,401 times
Reputation: 1184

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Most reasonable observers agree that the minimum wage should be left to the states (if we are to have it in the first place). Economic conditions vary too much for a one-size-fits-all number.

A federal minimum wage is a waste of paper and ink, and enforcement thereof is a waste of Dept. of Labor resources. I've had dealings with the federal DOL, and getting them to respond is like pulling teeth.
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Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,514 posts, read 19,502,510 times
Reputation: 21131
Talking You're upset...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Speaking like someone who doesn’t realize that forcing people to give you more money isn’t going to spur jack.
...and can't come up with anything.

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Old Yesterday, 02:35 PM
 
19,193 posts, read 9,767,622 times
Reputation: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
You are welcome to explain the morality of the the minimum wage law:

1. People are forced at gunpoint to pay above fair market rate for labor and services, or
2. People are prohibited from selling their labor and services at a discount to compete with others so that they can have a job and feed their family.
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Old Yesterday, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,171 posts, read 14,378,703 times
Reputation: 16369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The Federal Minimum Wage Rate.
You just never give up peddling your nonsense do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The federal minimum wage rate is a minimum rate. States may, and many have enacted a higher minimum within their own jurisdiction.
Yes, States may, because Labor is a power left to the States and not the federal government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention determined a federal law was necessary for reducing the economic harm that a U.S. State may deliberately or inadvertently inflict upon any other State, particularly an adjoining state.
There was no federal law created by delegates to the Convention in 1787 and you cannot prove there was since no laws were enacted by the Convention which lacked the power and authority to enact laws.

Only Congress can enact laws. Constitutional Conventions cannot.

Your lack of understanding of all things political and economic is overwhelming.

And, no delegates arrived at the conclusion you claim.

You have never read the meeting minutes, personal papers and diaries and letters written by the members of the Convention.

I have read them. It was required as part of the course I was taking to get my PhD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The constitution's commerce clause was enabled by delegates from wealthier states agreeing to sacrifice their own states' advantages. Without such compromises, the constitution would not have been ratified and our nation might not have survived to this day. That compromise is no less needed now, as it was in 1787.
That is not what happened. You're making thing up.

Obviously, you've never read the diary of Ezra Stiles where he recounts his conversation with Abraham Baldwin on the matter. You'll find that conversation in his December (1787) diary entries.

You can read Wilson Farrand's diaries and letters, too.

Farrand states it was the Committee of Detail which says the federal government was given power to regulate commerce "with foreign nations and among the several States" but not for the false reasons you claim.

If and when you ever get around to reading the meeting minutes of the Committee of Detail, you will note the reasons are 1) customs and revenues, 2) maritime law and navigation, 3) mercantile aspect (and that has to do with monopolies), 4) with foreign nations and among the several States (which was actually focused on "Indian trade") and 5) 'Not Commerce' in 1787.

From "Not Commerce" came certain constitutional clauses designed to facilitate trade between the several States and that was weights and measures, coin money and regulate the value, punish counterfeiting, bar the several States from coining money and providing bills of credit and impairing contracts (between parties of different States) and diversity of citizenship which allows a defendant in another State to remove a case from State court to federal court to prevent the appearance of impropriety, since a State court might favor a business plaintiff in its own State over a business defendant in another State.

You cannot cite any statement made by any member of the Constitutional Convention or the Committee of Detail to support your baseless false claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
If there's no definite legally enforced minimum wage rate, the effective minimum rate's an indefinite theoretical market-determined rate that may and likely will, (in the absence of labor shortages), too often race down to an “extremely poor bottom”.
Your claim is false.

If your claim was true, then employers would pay the minimum wage and only the minimum wage and no higher wages.

A simple review of Social Security wages debunks your claim.

Employers pay market rates and sometimes even a premium.

An example would be Florida about 15 years ago. The shortage of physical therapists was so severe, employers were willing to pay $10,000/month for an agreement to work 6 months and those people were put up in hotels, condos and swanky apartments for free with free cable and free rental car, plus all moving costs were paid for free and the got a free round-trip ticket home once a month.

That would be an example of Wage Inflation, but it also shows wages are based on market rates.

The situation ultimately resolved itself, but that was due in part to employers offering very attractive employment packages with incentives to get people to permanently move to Florida and work as physical therapists in addition to more people becoming trained in the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
I did not infer, I stated, “the constitution's commerce clause was enabled by delegates from wealthier states agreeing to sacrifice their own states' advantages. Without such compromises, the constitution would not have been ratified and our nation might not have survived to this day. That compromise is no less needed now, as it was in 1787”.
And that statement is lie because that is not why the Commerce Clause exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The federal minimum wage rate has been continuously upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court and the U.S. Congress has not voted to repeal it. That pleases me.
Cite the Supreme Court cases showing it's been "continuously upheld."

We'll wait.

You also ignore the fact that FDR threatened to pack the Supreme Court by adding six extra justices since the Constitution doesn't actually specify the number of justices on the Supreme Court.

In other words, FDR's legislation is tainted and so are the Supreme Court rulings because they were made under duress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Mathguy, I'm a proponent of the improved trade policy described within Wikipedia's “Import Certificates” article; Refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_certificates
Ah, yes, more of your drivel. You still can't wrap your brain around the fact that $1 of imports does not equal $1 of GDP.

$1 of imports equals $8 to $20 or more of GDP.
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM
 
19,193 posts, read 9,767,622 times
Reputation: 5370
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Most reasonable observers agree that the minimum wage should be left to the states (if we are to have it in the first place). Economic conditions vary too much for a one-size-fits-all number.

A federal minimum wage is a waste of paper and ink, and enforcement thereof is a waste of Dept. of Labor resources. I've had dealings with the federal DOL, and getting them to respond is like pulling teeth.
Most reasonable people despise the minimum wage law which is just an euphemism for slavery.

NOBODY SHOULD BE FORCED TO PAY YOU ANYTHING!
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM
 
15,832 posts, read 13,719,926 times
Reputation: 21843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
...is way too low.

And Pubs want to keep it there.

After all, they're all about cheap labor and sending your job to China.

The party of corporate welfare.

The Republicans want to keep it low? It was them who passed the last wage raise.

Your Democrat controlled Congress and presidency under Obama did not pass any wage increase at all.
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Old Yesterday, 03:36 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,722 posts, read 656,401 times
Reputation: 1184
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Most reasonable people despise the minimum wage law which is just an euphemism for slavery.

NOBODY SHOULD BE FORCED TO PAY YOU ANYTHING!
I'd disagree with the 'slavery' interpretation; nobody is 'forced' to hire anyone in the first place.

But I would say that the minimum wage, as implemented in the US, is a fraud and charade. There would be ways to implement a minimum wage that actually would benefit low-wage workers, but they cost money and therefore are not pursued (by either party). The fiat minimum wage that we have harms those it is supposed to help.
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Old Yesterday, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
4,897 posts, read 2,031,156 times
Reputation: 5358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
You're inferring the Constitution wouldn't have been ratified if there were no minimum wage laws? LMAO
Should we have "compromised" with King George?

The Constitution and our founding is based on rights. No one has a right to a minimum wage,

And yet the minimum wage exists. It exists to guarantee that the predator class doesn't take advantage of temporary surpluses in the job market.
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Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM
 
1,381 posts, read 711,663 times
Reputation: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Please explain which part pleases you.
1. People are forced at gunpoint to pay above fair market rate for labor and services, ...
LifeExplorer, I've overheard employers contending their low-wage employees are not worthy of their costs, but they continue to retain those employees. They’re not altruistic; they realize they're not likely to find better employees unless they're willing to pay higher wages.

Employers could ask their sales staff or their file clerks to do some light housework and reduce some of their janitorial expenses; but rather than grumble, employees' resentments could be indicated by reduced sales volumes or last files or higher expenses due to increased employee turnover.

Employers could better motivate their staffs by increasing sales commissions or bonuses for improved performances, but aren't those remedies similar to paying higher wages?

Employers are not forced at gunpoint to pay above market-rates for labor; the federal minimum wage rate is among the normal factors that determine USA labor-markets' rates.

Last edited by Supposn; Yesterday at 04:18 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,415 posts, read 3,106,691 times
Reputation: 9796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
...is way too low.



After all, they're all about cheap labor and sending your job to China.



It is not the GOP that wants open borders so that the US can be inundated with 3rd world cheap labor.

It was not the Dimms that put tariffs on cheap Chinese junk products.
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