U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: can a ne'er-do-well be a good leader?
yes. 8 34.78%
yes, but not Trump 11 47.83%
no. 2 8.70%
other (please explain below). 2 8.70%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:31 PM
 
Location: the Sticks
9,168 posts, read 2,604,241 times
Reputation: 4840

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by vacoder View Post
I think neer do well is not an apt description. If a person was a leader then they would by definition not be a neer do well.
Capone was a leader and an absolute ne'er do well. One has not a thing to do with the other.

Char;es Manson was a leader. He was also a scumbag that never achieved a thing on his own.

So yes a Ne'er do well can be come a leader. A great leader? No
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:31 PM
 
5,006 posts, read 1,404,652 times
Reputation: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Voluntary association vs involuntary association.

Study. Learn. Test later.
If u think early human tribalism was all about voluntary association you are woefully mistaken. Or even the tribalism present in our ancestor species. **** even chimp/ape tribes are not running solely or primarily on voluntary association. I would venture a guess that you cant even find a single social tribal species that has existed on this planet that did not/does not utilize involuntary force as an enforcement of their social hierarchy. This is why I say you guys are utopians, what you are looking for does not exist in nature and never has - please don't delude yourself into thinking humans are above nature, we are not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:34 PM
 
16,341 posts, read 4,301,859 times
Reputation: 11497
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Only a sociopath wants to lead an involuntary collective.

On a personal note, I don't want to be in charge of 80% of the decisions in my personal life and those results directly impact me. I doubt I'd fare much better under the tutelage of a guy in a suit downtown who I never met.

Just a hunch on my part.
Not true. Many people look at a situation and think to themselves "history, society and human interactions are complex but if I can move the needle even a tiny amount by doing something positive that is worth my time or my life".

Others just walk away and say "oh, only when it is perfect will I accept it...but someone else has to make it perfect".

Lots of different types in this world. Many people dedicate decades to taking care of a disabled family member. Other do the same for the homeless, sick, aged, etc.

Others do everything and anything just for themselves.....

It's all well and good to make your own choices - but considering them superior to others is a mistake. A big one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:34 PM
 
7,665 posts, read 2,734,149 times
Reputation: 3006
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
Capone was a leader and an absolute ne'er do well. One has not a thing to do with the other.

Char;es Manson was a leader. He was also a scumbag that never achieved a thing on his own.

So yes a Ne'er do well can be come a leader. A great leader? No
Never do well means no success at anything. Mostly used to refer to a bum A loafer. It does not mean you are an evil person. Capone for a time was a very successful criminal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:36 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,819 posts, read 678,500 times
Reputation: 1229
I'd be interested in getting details from those who voted for option 2. Why JFK, LBJ, and Jephthah, but not Trump?

I'm betting in advance that this question will not be answered.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:38 PM
 
16,341 posts, read 4,301,859 times
Reputation: 11497
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
Capone was a leader and an absolute ne'er do well. One has not a thing to do with the other.

Char;es Manson was a leader. He was also a scumbag that never achieved a thing on his own.

So yes a Ne'er do well can be come a leader. A great leader? No
Well, let me throw out another example.

Harry Truman.

A loser. Lost money in every business he entered. Became the small time Pol appointed by the "machine" of a local crook.

Became one of the better Presidents of this century. Certainly he was a very good leader and was known for making decisions quickly and knowing quite a bit about human nature and other things.

Good Read - and free for Prime Member - The Accidental President.

Check it out.

Some people have good things inside them but their circumstances or improper paths don't lead them to the garden where they might flower. Harry got lucky in that sense.

Truman is rated in the top 10 POTUS in history...not bad for a failed mom and pop business guy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:39 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,819 posts, read 678,500 times
Reputation: 1229
Also what about Bernie? I should have included him in the poll, but too late for that. Bernie was a hippie who never had a real, full time job until elected mayor of Burlington, VT at age 40. His first wife left him because they were living in primitive conditions--no electricity, etc.

Could he be an effective leader? If not why not? Why Trump but not Bernie, or conversely Bernie but not Trump?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:41 PM
 
16,341 posts, read 4,301,859 times
Reputation: 11497
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
I'd be interested in getting details from those who voted for option 2. Why JFK, LBJ, and Jephthah, but not Trump?

I'm betting in advance that this question will not be answered.
I would not call someone born to a Fortune (which would be in the billions today) low-born. So I picked that one because he doesn't qualify.

Even then, making "good from nothing" is MUCH more likely to happen at a young age. It is very true that a very old and trained Dog does not learn new tricks. Truman (above) showed his skill as soon as he entered politics and was also a Senator who did well (he investigated war profiteering during WWII and was highly regarded for honesty).

I mean - a billionaire Con-Man just isn't going to change at Age 70 and realize the world is different than he thought.....nor is Individual #1 even capable (intelligence, instinct, knowledge, honesty) of having the qualities that would allow him to change in that manner.

Hope that helps!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:44 PM
 
16,341 posts, read 4,301,859 times
Reputation: 11497
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Also what about Bernie? I should have included him in the poll, but too late for that. Bernie was a hippie who never had a real, full time job until elected mayor of Burlington, VT at age 40. His first wife left him because they were living in primitive conditions--no electricity, etc.

Could he be an effective leader? If not why not? Why Trump but not Bernie, or conversely Bernie but not Trump?
Bernie is/was a leader for many decades. He has proven himself and been elected over and over again by his city and then his state.

He is nothing if not honest....and well meaning.

I don't know his birth status....but he was likely of humble beginnings. So he fits the Truman mold so some degree. See above for Trump. Trump would have had to start at 35 yo or so and given up his selfish ways. We all program ourselves by our behavior.....and over decades its hard wired. Trump is never going to be sorry....ever...no matter what happens. He will never feel empathy or compassion for others. That ship has sailed and it looks like he may have passed those traits on to his kin...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-23-2019, 06:45 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,396 posts, read 9,886,503 times
Reputation: 9862
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
If u think early human tribalism was all about voluntary association you are woefully mistaken.
Nobody said violations of natural law didn't occur. They occur by the boatload today.

On the topic of leaders why not lead yourself and by extension...by example?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top