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View Poll Results: can a ne'er-do-well be a good leader?
yes. 14 45.16%
yes, but not Trump 13 41.94%
no. 2 6.45%
other (please explain below). 2 6.45%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-23-2019, 06:49 PM
 
5,006 posts, read 1,405,697 times
Reputation: 2946

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Nobody said violations of natural law didn't occur.
Haha, nonono don't hand wave this away.

The way early human tribes worked; your idea of "natural law" did not exist. Law of the jungle existed and was the norm, instances of what you think of as "natural law" would have been the extreme rarity-to-nonexistent.

10's of thousands of years of human social evolution is the only reason you have a concept of what you think "natural law" is in the first place. You have the luxury to rail against the social order because of how much better it is for the average person now than it was then. You no longer have to spend all your time hunting for your next meal and fighting other tribes doing the same, or fighting people in your own tribe to chase higher social status.

U go off on your own to do your own thing, you get your own food and defend it with your own sharpened stick. Then the first tribe that runs across you sees your food; 10 guys stab you with 10 sharpened sticks. Your right to self defense meant jack diddly cause you didn't have enough power to actually back it up. That is the reality.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:50 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,399 posts, read 9,893,111 times
Reputation: 9862
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Not true. Many people look at a situation and think to themselves "history, society and human interactions are complex but if I can move the needle even a tiny amount by doing something positive that is worth my time or my life".

Others just walk away and say "oh, only when it is perfect will I accept it...but someone else has to make it perfect".

Lots of different types in this world. Many people dedicate decades to taking care of a disabled family member. Other do the same for the homeless, sick, aged, etc.

Others do everything and anything just for themselves.....

It's all well and good to make your own choices - but considering them superior to others is a mistake. A big one.
Nope.

Only a sociopath wants to be a leader in an involuntary situation. I specifically said that and there is no wiggle room. Sorry.

And on the morality of choices. Who is assigning morality to choices? You voluntarily make a choice, don't violate the rights of others...who gives a flying blank what you did?

I have a newsflash for you folks - everyone just isn't that into you...like the movie.

With that being the case, be your own leader. Enjoy.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:55 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,399 posts, read 9,893,111 times
Reputation: 9862
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
Haha, nonono don't hand wave this away.

The way early human tribes worked; your idea of "natural law" did not exist. Law of the jungle existed and was the norm, instances of what you think of as "natural law" would have been the extreme rarity-to-nonexistent.

10's of thousands of years of human social evolution is the only reason you have a concept of what you think "natural law" is in the first place.
Are you saying I don't instinctively defend myself from a physical threat or understand that if I do initiate a similar physical threat the target will probably fight back?
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:56 PM
 
16,346 posts, read 4,308,715 times
Reputation: 11503
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Nope.

Only a sociopath wants to be a leader in an involuntary situation. I specifically said that and there is no wiggle room. Sorry.

And on the morality of choices. Who is assigning morality to choices? You voluntarily make a choice, don't violate the rights of others...who gives a flying blank what you did?

I have a newsflash for you folks - everyone just isn't that into you...like the movie.

With that being the case, be your own leader. Enjoy.
Well, I am glad I'm not stuck on the Polar Icecap with you in a wooden ship.....Remind me to turn down your offer to find the Northwest Passage or the South Pole!
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:56 PM
 
5,006 posts, read 1,405,697 times
Reputation: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Are you saying I don't instinctively defend myself from a physical threat or understand that if I do initiate a similar physical threat the target will probably fight back?
No I am saying that by yourself, you do not have the capacity to defend yourself from what you would face. I will leave attempting to fight back a horde by myself only to die in vain to the more philosophically "pure" members of our species.

What, surely you aren't so naive that you think just because you and some people around you want to live in full anarchy, that no one else in the world is going to form large tribal groups, crush your scattered and disorganized pseudo society and take your **** are you?
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:58 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,399 posts, read 9,893,111 times
Reputation: 9862
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Well, I am glad I'm not stuck on the Polar Icecap with you in a wooden ship.....Remind me to turn down your offer to find the Northwest Passage or the South Pole!
And that would be a huge mistake on your part.

I'm so awesome in my voluntary associations. Damn you're missing out.
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:01 PM
 
Location: SGV
25,399 posts, read 9,893,111 times
Reputation: 9862
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
No I am saying that by yourself, you do not have the capacity to defend yourself from what you would face.
This and a dime gets both of us a phone call.

Are you disappointed that you are a fragile lifeform born into poverty free from contractual obligation with no moral or logical right to rule over another man?

If so, take it up with Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or a god of your choice (usually folks pick the State).

Slavery is not an option in the face of inconvenience/natural scarcity.

With that said, see what a terrible leader I would make? Not telling you what you want to hear and that it's up to you?

I should run for office on this platform, right?

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Old 08-23-2019, 07:05 PM
 
5,006 posts, read 1,405,697 times
Reputation: 2946
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Are you disappointed that you are a fragile lifeform born into poverty free from contractual obligation with no moral or logical right to rule over another man?
Nope, I quite enjoy my life and the society I live in, which allows me to stay at least one level removed from the law of the jungle in my day to day. Because there is enough power present to do so, power which is derived from the consolidation of force we call a "society".
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:07 PM
 
5,411 posts, read 3,085,650 times
Reputation: 3286
Vid on loneliness and how it touches up on how we naturally work in groups and groups have leaders. Basically the strongest of them all.

https://youtu.be/n3Xv_g3g-mA
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Old 08-23-2019, 07:10 PM
 
5,411 posts, read 3,085,650 times
Reputation: 3286
Another good example. My brother got me i to a game called “PUBG”. It’s essentially a battle royal game and you can play in clans of 4. So usually the player that is the more skilled is the one everyone follows.

Kind of a virtual look into survival and pack mentality.

On that note, a fun read is to look when some glitch on Workd of Warcraft caused a plague in the online world that spread. Researchers actually studied it as a look into how a society would react.

Probably a good experiment for what No_Recess wants can be done digitally.
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