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View Poll Results: can a ne'er-do-well be a good leader?
yes. 18 50.00%
yes, but not Trump 14 38.89%
no. 2 5.56%
other (please explain below). 2 5.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-25-2019, 04:19 PM
 
16,387 posts, read 4,314,853 times
Reputation: 11517

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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
It's true that Trump's father was wealthy, but his grandfather Frederich came here from Germany in 1885. His first business was combo restaurant/brothel in Seattle. Then he went on to run a combo tavern/brothel in the Yukon. If that does not qualify President Trump as "low born" I don't know what would.
Uh, like being BORN without millions of dollars....and not in NYC upper class.

You really have spun up a nice world view, fueled by your fav. radio hosts. Sorry, but that's the case.

Low born is perhaps my Grandfather who was born to coal miners and worked as an elevator operator.....and even that is better off than many in the tenements or shacks of Appalachia.

Low born is my Irish neighbor across the street who lived with 9 other children in a 3 room house.

Quite a joke....Trump low born! Next thing you will tell us is that GWB was low born.
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Old 08-25-2019, 04:43 PM
 
6,682 posts, read 2,028,289 times
Reputation: 6283
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
There is no shortage of ne'er-do-well US presidents. JFK was a sex addict and indifferent student, who finished in the bottom third of his class at Harvard. He dropped out of Stanford MBA school after a semester. His takeaway comment about Stanford U: "the gals are quite attractive...."

LBJ was a true cretin who would conduct staff meetings while he was sitting on the toilet. He also held meetings regularly in the White House swimming pool, where everyone was required to swim nude as that was LBJ's preference. LBJ was tall, and liked to sadistically take staff members to a part of the pool where he could stand with his feet on the pool floor, while shorter staff members would have to tread water while discussing an issue.

Even Ike, now often regarded as a boy scout, had discipline issues at West Point. His main interest was playing football, and he was an inveterate prankster. Then there's Bill Clinton--no comment necessary; Barack Obama, of 'shroom gang' fame; and Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration, whose personal life was often a mess. Reagan admitted to going on a womanizing binge after divorcing his first wife.

If we look back at Old Testament history, we find numerous flawed leaders, who were nonetheless raised up by the good Lord. King David might be the epitome, but there are many others. Jephtath, from the book of Judges (chapters 11-12), was son of a prostitute who became a leader of a kind of youth gang. He wound up as a military leader, and a judge who presided over Israel for six years.

Can a ne'er-do-well nonetheless be an effective or even great leader? What do you think.

Sure, it's possible.

First, are you sure you know what "cretin" means? Or even "ne'er-do-well"? LBJ could be crude, vulgar, and mean, but he was no cretin. With Bill Clinton, I assume your distaste is for his sexual lapses, but that's irrelevant; he was by no means a ne'er-do well. With Eisenhower's military career, he can hardly be considered a ne'er-do-well; his schooldays are irrelevant.

And the Bible is irrelevant.

However, I think we could say that a few ne'er-do-well types have eventually become decent presidents. I gather that Truman was considered a failure for much of his earlier life. But maybe this question would be better in the History forum.
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:01 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,854 posts, read 685,553 times
Reputation: 1255
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Uh, like being BORN without millions of dollars....and not in NYC upper class.

You really have spun up a nice world view, fueled by your fav. radio hosts. Sorry, but that's the case.

Low born is perhaps my Grandfather who was born to coal miners and worked as an elevator operator.....and even that is better off than many in the tenements or shacks of Appalachia.

Low born is my Irish neighbor across the street who lived with 9 other children in a 3 room house.

Quite a joke....Trump low born! Next thing you will tell us is that GWB was low born.
again, Trumps grandfather worked running brothels, and later a barbershop in NYC. Not exactly upper-crust, carriage-trade ancestry.

As always, your psychic powers fail you when you say that I'm "fueled by your fav. radio hosts. Sorry, but that's the case." Sorry, but it's not the case. This info comes from a book by former NYT reporter and progressive writer David Cay Johnston, who has covered Trump and his family for decades. IIRC he said that he had to rent a storage unit to keep all the documents, notes, etc. that he had on Trump. None comes from any radio host.

When will people learn that mental telepathy does not work, especially over the Internet?
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:09 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,854 posts, read 685,553 times
Reputation: 1255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
Sure, it's possible.

First, are you sure you know what "cretin" means? Or even "ne'er-do-well"? LBJ could be crude, vulgar, and mean, but he was no cretin. With Bill Clinton, I assume your distaste is for his sexual lapses, but that's irrelevant; he was by no means a ne'er-do well. With Eisenhower's military career, he can hardly be considered a ne'er-do-well; his schooldays are irrelevant.

And the Bible is irrelevant.

However, I think we could say that a few ne'er-do-well types have eventually become decent presidents. I gather that Truman was considered a failure for much of his earlier life. But maybe this question would be better in the History forum.
From Merriam Webster:
Quote:
Definition of cretin
1
often offensive : one afflicted with cretinism
2
informal : a stupid, vulgar, or insensitive person : clod, lout
Maybe I could have picked a better word since 'cretin' has a strong connotation of 'stupid,' and certainly LBJ was not stupid. It's too late to edit the thread title if I wanted to. But 'cretin' fits, going by the above definition.

As far as irrelevance, who died and made you irrelevance czar? Arbitrarily declaring facts that you don't like as 'irrelevant' is not a very debating tactic.
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:59 PM
 
16,387 posts, read 4,314,853 times
Reputation: 11517
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
again, Trumps grandfather worked running brothels, and later a barbershop in NYC. Not exactly upper-crust, carriage-trade ancestry.

As always, your psychic powers fail you when you say that I'm "fueled by your fav. radio hosts. Sorry, but that's the case." Sorry, but it's not the case. This info comes from a book by former NYT reporter and progressive writer David Cay Johnston, who has covered Trump and his family for decades. IIRC he said that he had to rent a storage unit to keep all the documents, notes, etc. that he had on Trump. None comes from any radio host.

When will people learn that mental telepathy does not work, especially over the Internet?
Ah, so what you meant to say is that TRUMPS FATHER was born to a Middle Class business owners...Ma and Pa type of business.

Sorry, but based on the title I thought perhaps you were being honest and not just trying to tell the world that Trump comes from humble beginnings. He doesn't. No one here would say that someone who inherited 2 BILLION dollars (in todays money) was low-born.

It's just a new definition you made up....because TrumpWorld is opposite world. He is a moral and honest man. He is "conservative"...and very nice. He is a great POTUS (last on the list according to facts now) and he also has a New Origin Story which you are trying to spread.

Sorry......

"His mother was Scottish-born housewife and socialite"
"Using his inheritance (350K in todays money in 1918), Fred Trump and his mother Elizabeth founded Elizabeth Trump & Son. Donald Trump later renamed it the Trump Organization"

So, his MOM was a socialite - his Father had many millions when Don was born....AND, his father got that money from HIS inheritance....

C'mon, T, have at least a tiny bit of honesty here. Trump is the completely opposite of low born....i.e. in the 1%.

And I'm being nice...probably in the .1% or higher.

No, not low born. But if you want to discuss OTHER successful people who truly were low born (Lincoln, Clinton and even Obama) we can do so......

"He is the son of William Jefferson Blythe Jr., a traveling salesman who had died in an automobile accident three months before his birth" (Clinton)

Lincoln...of course we know about the Log Cabin.

Obama?
"his father was a foreign student on a scholarship."
"Wife - her father joined the United States Army and her mother worked at a Boeing plant in Wichita."

That's a lot further down the totem pole but leagues ahead of my Italian ancestors who worked the mines, warehouse jobs and as an elevator operator. I'd say they were somewhat low-born.
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:07 PM
 
5,218 posts, read 1,027,859 times
Reputation: 2062
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
There is no shortage of ne'er-do-well US presidents. JFK was a sex addict and indifferent student, who finished in the bottom third of his class at Harvard. He dropped out of Stanford MBA school after a semester. His takeaway comment about Stanford U: "the gals are quite attractive...."

LBJ was a true cretin who would conduct staff meetings while he was sitting on the toilet. He also held meetings regularly in the White House swimming pool, where everyone was required to swim nude as that was LBJ's preference. LBJ was tall, and liked to sadistically take staff members to a part of the pool where he could stand with his feet on the pool floor, while shorter staff members would have to tread water while discussing an issue.

Even Ike, now often regarded as a boy scout, had discipline issues at West Point. His main interest was playing football, and he was an inveterate prankster. Then there's Bill Clinton--no comment necessary; Barack Obama, of 'shroom gang' fame; and Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration, whose personal life was often a mess. Reagan admitted to going on a womanizing binge after divorcing his first wife.

If we look back at Old Testament history, we find numerous flawed leaders, who were nonetheless raised up by the good Lord. King David might be the epitome, but there are many others. Jephtath, from the book of Judges (chapters 11-12), was son of a prostitute who became a leader of a kind of youth gang. He wound up as a military leader, and a judge who presided over Israel for six years.

Can a ne'er-do-well nonetheless be an effective or even great leader? What do you think.
Even in ancient mythology, "great leaders" or "great heroes" were often flawed. Herakles was a murdered and rapist yet he still often considered the greatest Greek hero!
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Old 08-25-2019, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
12,975 posts, read 4,396,866 times
Reputation: 10265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
Why do you need a k̶e̶e̶p̶e̶r̶ leader?
Correct. Independent people don't need leaders.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:14 PM
 
2,649 posts, read 899,556 times
Reputation: 1845
You're mixing up your characterizations. Ne'er do well? Low born? A lot of great leaders were born poor, if that's what you mean. Including our greatest President, Abe Lincoln. I thought a person of ill-repute was a prostitute.

I wouldn't call LBJ a cretin (cretin being a stupid or retarded person). He may have been a bully, but I don't question his intelligence. I wouldn't say JFK was dumb - a person in the lower third at Harvard is probably in the top ten percent nationally.

I think you're asking if a person with moral failings can be a great leader. Well, all people have moral failings, and leaders are people, so the answer is yes. But there is a difference between a great leader and a good leader. Hitler was a great leader. But he was not good.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:24 PM
 
12,481 posts, read 3,388,996 times
Reputation: 4208
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Uh, like being BORN without millions of dollars....and not in NYC upper class.

You really have spun up a nice world view, fueled by your fav. radio hosts. Sorry, but that's the case.

Low born is perhaps my Grandfather who was born to coal miners and worked as an elevator operator.....and even that is better off than many in the tenements or shacks of Appalachia.

Low born is my Irish neighbor across the street who lived with 9 other children in a 3 room house.

Quite a joke....Trump low born! Next thing you will tell us is that GWB was low born.
It depends on whose perspective one is looking from. To some old money Manhattan blue bloods, Trump will always be an 'outsider' (someone who is 'low born') . His money can't buy their lineage. There are certain clubs that would still never admit him as a member, and certain co-op boards who would never vote him in.

Last edited by RMESMH; 08-25-2019 at 07:33 PM.. Reason: Added five words
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:46 PM
 
16,387 posts, read 4,314,853 times
Reputation: 11517
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMESMH View Post
It depends on whose perspective one is looking from. To some old money Manhattan blue bloods, Trump will always be an 'outsider' (someone who is 'low born') . His money can't buy their lineage. There are certain clubs that would still never admit him as a member, and certain co-op boards who would never vote him in.
Well. that is not exactly low born.........

That's like saying he might not fit in with the royal family.

The "never do well" "low born" has zero to do with what's left of society (not much) BUT, when you consider that Epstein and such WERE the movers and shakers in NYC and Palm Beach Society and Trump partied with him, that means Don was part of the scene.

The Vanderbilts don't really exist any more...except for Andersen Cooper on CNN (he is one)....

Heck, Nixon couldn't join a NYC Co-op. John Lennon could.

But none of this has to do with low-born or never-do-well...become a great leader.

I think Truman is perhaps a good example. Lincoln also. Even Obama and Clinton....whether people like them or not, they are not from high society and are/were considered good leaders (historically).

So the answer is yes. But I can't see where it relates to Trump...except in the opposite.

"Can someone born to riches and given billions really end up being a complete loser?".....well, yes, and there are a LOT of examples of this.

In fact, Andersen Coopers family includes Reginald...a Vanderbilt of the 2nd generation who liked puzzy grabbing, fancy cars, horses and booze. His insides melted at age 45.
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