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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM
 
23,856 posts, read 12,569,324 times
Reputation: 7618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
This is a pissing contest. China is overtaking the US as the dominate economic force in the world and the anti-globalists are not happy about it. But it was inevitable since China is clawing its way out of being a backward, agricultural country into being a technical and manufacturing powerhouse. It was always only a matter of time. India will be the next to do this. America is on the decline because the world changes and because Trump does not want to change with it, he wants us to go back to the 1950's. But that era is long gone and there is no going back.

Trump's endgame is partly unachievable - jobs are not going to return to America because of this trade war. And China's business practices that have forced American technology companies to transfer IP (intellectual property) to them are just wily capitalism. - after all, the companies did not have to do business with China, they could have gone elsewhere or manufactured at home. So I doubt those will change.

The one goal that will be corrected is the outright theft of IP, but Trump could achieve that much more effective with an international coalition that ceases to do business with companies that steal IP than with a trade war.

The last issue is fentanyl. But that is a criminal matter not a trade problem. Trump throws that out there to justify his trade war but there are other more effective ways to stop it.
Because India & China may becoming the economic powerhouses doesn't mean the USA is in decline. It means maybe that the USA isn't the prominent economic entity -- and who cares. As long as we are enjoying a certain level of economic comfort -- which apparently has been happening for the last few years if you believe Trumpers.....then what the !@#$ does it matter.

I may have a different perspective growing up and living in Canada. CAnada will never be the economic super power USA is....but life is good in Canada. It works. There isn't a whole lot of looking at other countries and thinking - gee why can't we be number one. Who cares as long as most citizens are happy.

This need to be beating our chest and proclaiming number one status is irrelevant.

China has the fasted, biggest growing economy --- it's citizens don't have our quality of life.

So can we stop this pathetic climb to dominate and just enjoy where we are.

Now we are fighting with allies, creating economic instability at home and all because there is some kind of fear of not being number one.

THere are issues with trade with China....address those through diplomatic means. I don't understand Trump and his fans objecting to diplomacy with China but thinking that it is worth bending the knee to North Korea, Russia for the sake of diplomacy.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of common sense, rational thinking...just a whole bunch of USA bravado
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Old Yesterday, 01:48 PM
nng
 
233 posts, read 53,912 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
This is a pissing contest. China is overtaking the US as the dominate economic force in the world and the anti-globalists are not happy about it. But it was inevitable since China is clawing its way out of being a backward, agricultural country into being a technical and manufacturing powerhouse. It was always only a matter of time. India will be the next to do this. America is on the decline because the world changes and because Trump does not want to change with it, he wants us to go back to the 1950's. But that era is long gone and there is no going back.

Trump's endgame is partly unachievable - jobs are not going to return to America because of this trade war. And China's business practices that have forced American technology companies to transfer IP (intellectual property) to them are just wily capitalism. - after all, the companies did not have to do business with China, they could have gone elsewhere or manufactured at home. So I doubt those will change.

The one goal that will be corrected is the outright theft of IP, but Trump could achieve that much more effective with an international coalition that ceases to do business with companies that steal IP than with a trade war.

The last issue is fentanyl. But that is a criminal matter not a trade problem. Trump throws that out there to justify his trade war but there are other more effective ways to stop it.
Thank you for the excellent and thorough response!! You know I was talking to someone else about trumps mentality with his trade war and she said that trump thinks the USA is still in the Monroe era or the era after ww2 where the USA was always going to be number one when it comes to trade and other areas, but it just doesn't work that way anymore. Other countries wants their slice of the pie as well. I was reading on another political forum and this guy from a foreign country said that trump thinks we are still in the era where the USA always gets the biggest chicken in the bag because we are the USA, but now things are different and that's not how things will always be from now on. Trade is a complex thing. It's nice to hear other people's opinions on these types of things you know? It really gives you insight into different perspectives. Of course I am rooting for trump and the USA, as an American, but who knows how this trade war is going to end up!
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Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM
 
574 posts, read 117,006 times
Reputation: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Because India & China may becoming the economic powerhouses doesn't mean the USA is in decline. It means maybe that the USA isn't the prominent economic entity -- and who cares. As long as we are enjoying a certain level of economic comfort -- which apparently has been happening for the last few years if you believe Trumpers.....then what the !@#$ does it matter.

I may have a different perspective growing up and living in Canada. CAnada will never be the economic super power USA is....but life is good in Canada. It works. There isn't a whole lot of looking at other countries and thinking - gee why can't we be number one. Who cares as long as most citizens are happy.

This need to be beating our chest and proclaiming number one status is irrelevant.

China has the fasted, biggest growing economy --- it's citizens don't have our quality of life.

So can we stop this pathetic climb to dominate and just enjoy where we are.

Now we are fighting with allies, creating economic instability at home and all because there is some kind of fear of not being number one.

THere are issues with trade with China....address those through diplomatic means. I don't understand Trump and his fans objecting to diplomacy with China but thinking that it is worth bending the knee to North Korea, Russia for the sake of diplomacy.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of common sense, rational thinking...just a whole bunch of USA bravado
I hear what you are saying, but the simple counterpoint goes like so:

1) China will become the main adversary to the US over time
2) Do you want to be dependent on your adversary for basic standards of living?

They *will* use their position to their advantage over the years. By the time it really matters, it'll be too late.

OTOH, I worry about electrical infrastructure hardening against Carrington Events and EMPs. It comes from designing highly reliable systems for a living.
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Old Yesterday, 02:06 PM
 
32,970 posts, read 16,874,413 times
Reputation: 17814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
The NYT is an irresponsible Trump hating propaganda machine.
Yeah, they quote him ad verbatim. The fiends.
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Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,281 posts, read 272,137 times
Reputation: 1326
The IEEPA only applies after the President declares a state of emergency due to an "unusual and extraordinary threat to the United States". Since he has not done so, any such "order" does not apply. However, a threat to the economy of the United States is sufficient grounds to do so. (Is it really though? It seems like the economic threat is coming from us in the form of these escalating Tariffs.) The emergency declaration can only last one year and then must be renewed, so that will occur in the midst of his re-election campaign if declared now. His advisers may therefore council holding off until mid-November before making the declaration, if they perceive it will negatively impact the election.
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Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
32,285 posts, read 20,373,659 times
Reputation: 46614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
Trump isn't going to force companies to do anything. He is making these statements to scare China. Plus he only said he would order companies to LOOK FOR alternative places to do business, not "make them move". Get a grip Libs.

The NYT is an irresponsible Trump hating propaganda machine.
Except Trump is explaining why he can do it, so he seems to think it is an idea. Is the argument once again that when Trump talks one should ignore him?
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Old Yesterday, 03:57 PM
 
7,598 posts, read 4,367,295 times
Reputation: 9918
“Don’t worry, he’s just bluffing” is no more encouraging.

He’s the President, not someone at a poker table.
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Old Yesterday, 04:00 PM
 
574 posts, read 117,006 times
Reputation: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnamed View Post
“Don’t worry, he’s just bluffing” is no more encouraging.

He’s the President, not someone at a poker table.

They are the same thing a lot of the time.


Seriously, what other leverage points does a POTUS have against the Chinese? Bomb Beijing? Ask nicely? Good luck on that.
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
15,042 posts, read 9,277,602 times
Reputation: 10017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
Trump isn't going to force companies to do anything. He is making these statements to scare China. Plus he only said he would order companies to LOOK FOR alternative places to do business, not "make them move". Get a grip Libs.

The NYT is an irresponsible Trump hating propaganda machine.
No, Trump believes that as president he can force them to stop buying from China, you know this you rather ignore it as always.
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Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM
 
7,598 posts, read 4,367,295 times
Reputation: 9918
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawberrySoup View Post
They are the same thing a lot of the time.


Seriously, what other leverage points does a POTUS have against the Chinese? Bomb Beijing? Ask nicely? Good luck on that.
International sanctions based on their human rights abuses and copyright infringement? But that would require diplomacy and credibility.

Which we’ve lost just withdrawing from treaties for fun.
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