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Old Today, 07:38 AM
 
10,779 posts, read 4,353,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
They're relevant in a court. If someone is caught lying to you throughout testimony and you're on the jury you just ignore that?
I'll turn this around.

You've got video of her TWICE trying to escape him, and he comes and drags her back into the hotel room, both of them nude (she's got a bra on, I guess), you're going to ignore that, and instead, believe his verbiage?

When you can see with your own eyes that she's trying to leave and he won't let her?
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Old Today, 07:44 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,569 posts, read 6,544,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I'll turn this around.

You've got video of her TWICE trying to escape him, and he comes and drags her back into the hotel room, both of them nude (she's got a bra on, I guess), you're going to ignore that, and instead, believe his verbiage?

When you can see with your own eyes that he won't let her leave?
Doesn't prove sexual assault took place. Its its perfectly plausible that he was trying to calm her down/protect her between both times she left the room; I know one thing, if I am having consensual sex with a woman in a hotel room and she suddenly up and gets upset with me after we have engaged in sexual activity because of something I said and wants to storm out of the room naked, I'm not going to let that happen even if only out of fear for her physical safety of roaming the hallway naked.

Curiously, the second time she left the room, she casually walks out, which doesn't scream of someone fleeing a rapist to me and makes his story more believable especially in light of the accuser's apparently inconsistencies. The jurors didn't buy the accuser's story either based on her inconsistent testimony. Again, I'm going to trust the jury--which had more evidence than we do--on this one.

Perhaps, Cleaves is guilty of rape. If evidence comes forward that conclusively shows this as a legal matter (he can't be tried again under the same set of facts given his exoneration), I hope that he gets what's coming to him. But a wish doesn't make something reality.
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Old Today, 08:26 AM
 
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Here's a very long article, but if you scroll down to the subheading "rape case" and read from there, it's interesting and more thorough than other articles I've read.

It rings true to me. She was in a hotel room with this celebrity, and realizes she ought not be doing this. He's married, she has a boyfriend, so she gets up to leave, drunk and staggering.

He pulls her back in, TWICE, and has sex with her, and she has patches that she doesn't remember - she's blacked out.

It rings true to me. The way cops treated him at the scene, and the way the court system treated him afterwards, is also disturbing. He's driving away when they appear on the scene, they talk to the witness and observe the very drunk woman, and ask to breathalize Cleaves, who refuses that. And so they drive him home, never taking a statement from the witness or filing a report.

And in the morning she goes to the hospital for a rape exam.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/2...ns/2063374001/
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Old Today, 08:47 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
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Definitely some disturbing facts regarding his behavior and the behavior of the police. That said, I still don't know if I am willing to say that the evidence was there to support beyond a reasonable doubt (that is the legal standard) that rape/sexual assault took place, especially not without all of the other evidence that the jury was privy to.
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Old Today, 08:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Definitely some disturbing facts regarding his behavior and the behavior of the police. That said, I still don't know if I am willing to say that the evidence was there to support beyond a reasonable doubt (that is the legal standard) that rape/sexual assault took place, especially not without all of the other evidence that the jury was privy to.
What other evidence was that, do you know?

(I ask because I haven't been able to find anything about what the jury believed were "lies" on her part - articles are short on details).
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Old Today, 08:51 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,569 posts, read 6,544,522 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
What other evidence was that, do you know?

(I ask because I haven't been able to find anything about what the jury believed were "lies" on her part - articles are short on details).
Yeah, unfortunately I don't think that information has been released yet. The only thing I've seen were quotes from one juror explaining vaguely why the jury decided to disregard the accuser's testimony. But nothing hard on specifics.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Out West
23,020 posts, read 17,044,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
When you see something like this, you have to ask, "what was the jury told, to explain the video"?

What made the jury basically decide not to believe what their own eyes - and the impartial witness - were telling them?

And a follow up question: when the witness called police, presumedly to report a nearly nude woman was dragged against her will into a hotel room, and was pleading for help, why didn't that get top priority response from law enforcement? Why, did she run AGAIN out of the room 13 minutes later, presumedly with no cops showing up yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
This ESPN article sheds some light. Apparently his home town celebrity DID sway the court system, including the fact that Law Enforcement who eventually arrived on the scene didn't even file an incident report and gave Cleaves a gratis lift home.

Additionally, the quote by the juror is telling. Basically, if you willingly get in a car with a man, you're his to do with what he wants, even if you run naked out of the room yelling for help twice during the night and are dragged back in against your will.

Sorry, lady, you got what you asked for, according to the jury.

Stunning.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...sexual-assault
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I really don't see how whatever her statements were is relevant here. We see what we see.

Whether she initially was embarrassed that she went to a man's hotel room, whether she initially consented to sex, whether she was in fact too drunk to clearly remember all the details, we have video.

Of him chasing her, and dragging her against his will back to his room yelling to a witness for help. TWICE.

To me, that trumps everything else. We SEE what he does, and she's trying her best to get away.

The fact that there were 9 women on the jury isn't a point for justice. Many women will throw other women under the bus same as look at them. She might have gotten a fairer shake if the jury was made up of fathers of young women her age.
The jury, and some on here, seem to think that "there were inconsistencies" in her story is all the reason to slam this shut and carry on.

I have the same questions as you do: What was the jury told? What did they hear? What inconsistencies? She was intoxicated. You're not going to remember everything. She didn't immediately say that she was assaulted. Um...she was intoxicated, and considering how the police treated the entire thing like it was nothing, from the start, giving this guy a courtesy ride home...do you think they cared one bit about her at that time? Not even an incident report was made, and we're supposed to think that they came on the scene and tried to get to the bottom of it? I'm thinking they didn't do any of that. Oh, and yes, my favorite part, "she got into the car with him willingly" - as if that makes it okay to assault anyone.

When you have video and a witness stating that this lady repeatedly ran out and yelled "help me", that is NOT a willing participant, regardless of anything else that went on that night, regardless of how drunk she was, regardless if she got into this car "willingly" or not, regardless of "inconsistencies" (more than likely due to the fact that she had been drunk that night), regardless of some hometown hero. When someone is running out of a room, buck naked, yelling for help - THEY. ARE. NOT. CONSENTING!
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Old Today, 09:35 AM
 
281 posts, read 32,679 times
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If you have any question of what is really supposed to happen here , just put your paws all over a woman who is trying to get away from you in public and just start dragging her as well .
Then let us know how it worked out with the one phone call you are allowed to make .
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Old Today, 10:53 AM
 
9,613 posts, read 5,876,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
No, they don't. But at the same time that doesn't change the fact that the video doesn't show rape or sexual assault. Thus, it is not "clear" as some in this thread have claimed. That's the point I'm making with the video.

The video shows kidnapping. In addition to what is seen in the video a witness testified that the woman was crying and pleading for help.
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Old Today, 11:08 AM
 
13,086 posts, read 4,027,835 times
Reputation: 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by unfailing presence View Post
If you have any question of what is really supposed to happen here , just put your paws all over a woman who is trying to get away from you in public and just start dragging her as well .
Then let us know how it worked out with the one phone call you are allowed to make .
Assault, kidnapping and forcible rape (the only real rape).
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