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Old 08-25-2019, 06:37 AM
 
Location: New York Area
16,606 posts, read 6,581,636 times
Reputation: 12780

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To my mind, integration and civil rights are supposed to be about opening educational opportunities to all. In the "old days" elite educations were the province of those who could afford prep schools such as Choate, Groton and Exeter. In other words the stuff of books and movies such as A Separate Peace. A laudable objective. It seems that, as usual, identity politics gets in the way.New York’s schools chancellor, Richard Carranza, has decided that it is very important to lower poor Asian student's participation, to benefit the manic drive to diversity. See these two linked N.Y. Times article.

Desegregating N.Y. Schools Was His Top Priority. What Happened?

Entrenched inequality, attacks by conservatives, student protests: Richard A. Carranza’s first year as schools chancellor.
By Eliza Shapiro

Amid Racial Divisions, Mayor’s Plan to Scrap Elite School Exam Fails

Opposition from Asian lawmakers and a billionaire’s lobbying push helped block Bill de Blasio’s plan to desegregate New York’s specialized schools.

The opposition to the ruination of great specialized schools is said to be led by "conservatives." There is nothing "liberal" or "progressive" about taking the wrecking ball to great education. Is the goal to force high-achieving families out of New York City to turn it into another segregated ghetto?
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:38 PM
 
13,692 posts, read 4,181,294 times
Reputation: 4093
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
To my mind, integration and civil rights are supposed to be about opening educational opportunities to all. In the "old days" elite educations were the province of those who could afford prep schools such as Choate, Groton and Exeter. In other words the stuff of books and movies such as A Separate Peace. A laudable objective. It seems that, as usual, identity politics gets in the way.New York’s schools chancellor, Richard Carranza, has decided that it is very important to lower poor Asian student's participation, to benefit the manic drive to diversity. See these two linked N.Y. Times article.

Desegregating N.Y. Schools Was His Top Priority. What Happened?

Entrenched inequality, attacks by conservatives, student protests: Richard A. Carranza’s first year as schools chancellor.
By Eliza Shapiro

Amid Racial Divisions, Mayor’s Plan to Scrap Elite School Exam Fails

Opposition from Asian lawmakers and a billionaire’s lobbying push helped block Bill de Blasio’s plan to desegregate New York’s specialized schools.

The opposition to the ruination of great specialized schools is said to be led by "conservatives." There is nothing "liberal" or "progressive" about taking the wrecking ball to great education. Is the goal to force high-achieving families out of New York City to turn it into another segregated ghetto?
So the people who are all for desegregating white schools, are all against desegregating their schools.
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:56 PM
 
15,672 posts, read 8,087,641 times
Reputation: 8082
IMO they need to leave the selective enrollment schools alone and focus on lower performing schools individually.

I also do support bias training in school systems and would encourage a use of some sort of metric to track biased teachers. IMO bias of teachers is one of the main issues for under performing students.

I admit as a black parent, today I don't see an issue with schools that are homogenous. I know people from NYC and have read a lot on their selective enrollment schools in particular and I believe that the politicians overlook the fact that often black/brown families don't want their children in an environment that may be racist/biased towards them and their abilities based on their ethnic roots/skin color. This bias/racism could come from both the student body or the teachers. I personally would not send my child to a school that didn't have a significant amount of black students (over 12%) or teachers from a diverse background (not necessarily related to race as IMO the attitude and background work history of a teacher is more important than their race/ethnic roots).
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Old Yesterday, 04:40 AM
 
Location: New York Area
16,606 posts, read 6,581,636 times
Reputation: 12780
[quote=residinghere2007;56021312]IMO they need to leave the selective enrollment schools alone and focus on lower performing schools individually. [/qutoe]We agree here and for that reason I am going to rep you. A Kodak moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I also do support bias training in school systems and would encourage a use of some sort of metric to track biased teachers. IMO bias of teachers is one of the main issues for under performing students.
The question is, how much? A lot of the school day is already scarfed up with non-academic concerns. I think that the best "bias training" would be to make society more race-blind. When I am in front of a black judge I do not see color; I listen to rulings from the bench.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I admit as a black parent, today I don't see an issue with schools that are homogenous. I know people from NYC and have read a lot on their selective enrollment schools in particular and I believe that the politicians overlook the fact that often black/brown families don't want their children in an environment that may be racist/biased towards them and their abilities based on their ethnic roots/skin color. This bias/racism could come from both the student body or the teachers. I personally would not send my child to a school that didn't have a significant amount of black students (over 12%) or teachers from a diverse background (not necessarily related to race as IMO the attitude and background work history of a teacher is more important than their race/ethnic roots).
No one wants to be the first to integrate. We do obviously have to start somewhere. Segregation is, though, admittedly largely the white's fault. That does not mean quotas are the answer.
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Old Yesterday, 05:03 AM
 
18,067 posts, read 20,051,724 times
Reputation: 7631
It's ironic that you blame conservatives... When it always has been liberal policies with segregation... Before De Idiot became mayor, segregation was most found in liberal citites and states, so you can stop that BS... Typical left policy of do it to them but not me, when De Idiot did it to liberals, they raised up more BS... Desegregate everything period, then cry me a river liberals...
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Old Yesterday, 03:36 PM
 
15,672 posts, read 8,087,641 times
Reputation: 8082
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post

The question is, how much? A lot of the school day is already scarfed up with non-academic concerns. I think that the best "bias training" would be to make society more race-blind. When I am in front of a black judge I do not see color; I listen to rulings from the bench.

No one wants to be the first to integrate. We do obviously have to start somewhere. Segregation is, though, admittedly largely the white's fault. That does not mean quotas are the answer.
On bias training, I think that many people don't know what bias is or what it entails and that it should be monthly or quarterly and a quick computer based module. I've done them many times at places I work and it does educate people about what bias is and potential scenarios of where it occurs.

In regards to people stating people should be race "blind" or "not see color" that is a fantasy and no one is color blind. People see color all the time because it is reality. Our society imbues us with certain biases towards people of particular backgrounds and appearances depending on our family and where we were reared. When you ignore that you have those biases they just exist, if you confront them, they will diminish. But to pretend something doesn't exist that does is kind of childish IMO.

On "being the first to integrate" black children have already been that test case back in 19th century through really the 1980s. As a black parent, I think that if white parents are concerned with integration that they need to "integrate" at majority black/brown schools with their children, not the other way around.

On quotas, I didn't mention any quotas so not sure why you stated that. Maybe it has to do with my "color" lol. And that is joke but seriously many white people often bring up so-called "black" topics like Affirmative Action or "quotas" to me often for no reason when I said nothing about the subject. IMO that is one of those biases that people hold of blacks - that we care a whole lot about quotas and Affirmative Action. Not sure why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with schools.

Basically, if Asians in those schools are mean to or don't want my kid to attend - the fact that there have been black graduates of those schools who have stated that they had a difficult time being black in that environment - as a responsible black parent, I'm not sending my child to that school. I'm sure there are other decent schools with a larger black population.

Every time I see these sorts of posts, it reminds me of Chicago elite high schools. I have little cousins in law in Chicago who attend selective enrollment high schools there. One of their selective enrollment schools is 99% black and is very highly rated (plus it is named after one of my favorite poets Gwendolyn Brooks). I'd prefer my kid go there than to Walter Payton which is more diverse and has higher test scores. Smart black kids who go to school with predominantly other smart black kids don't worry as much about other silly things that they don't need to be bothered with about race from their classmates and teachers. As Black Americans we deal enough with race issues in our adult life to where I don't want my kids dealing with it as kids.
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Old Yesterday, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
10,390 posts, read 6,828,529 times
Reputation: 6605
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
IMO they need to leave the selective enrollment schools alone and focus on lower performing schools individually.

I also do support bias training in school systems and would encourage a use of some sort of metric to track biased teachers. IMO bias of teachers is one of the main issues for under performing students.

I admit as a black parent, today I don't see an issue with schools that are homogenous. I know people from NYC and have read a lot on their selective enrollment schools in particular and I believe that the politicians overlook the fact that often black/brown families don't want their children in an environment that may be racist/biased towards them and their abilities based on their ethnic roots/skin color. This bias/racism could come from both the student body or the teachers. I personally would not send my child to a school that didn't have a significant amount of black students (over 12%) or teachers from a diverse background (not necessarily related to race as IMO the attitude and background work history of a teacher is more important than their race/ethnic roots).
Well said.

As an Asian American, we've had this same sort of contention over in San Francisco - where the Chinese American community has long complained about how more difficult it is to enter the big name magnet school, Lowell High, if you're Chinese American.

But as you've mentioned - why not instead focus resources and attention on making ALL the schools across the city better? Not all the Asians are going to be able to attend Lowell, or in NYC, Stuy or Bronx Science. In San Francisco, a whole lot more attend the other nonselective schools.

The other question that people don't ask or consider --- is that sort of an environment suitable for your child? Schools like Lowell, Stuyvescent, are really high pressure and extremely stressful. Cheating and depression are pretty rampant. There's going to be some folks at the bottom, and they're not going to be going to Berkeley or UCLA or UChicago.

And I certainly don't want so-called concerned white folks like the OP and mtl1 speaking on our behalf. Their record on racial issues is neither helpful nor doing my community any favors.

Last edited by silverkris; Yesterday at 04:31 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 06:03 PM
 
5,613 posts, read 1,124,672 times
Reputation: 2219
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
It's ironic that you blame conservatives... When it always has been liberal policies with segregation... Before De Idiot became mayor, segregation was most found in liberal citites and states, so you can stop that BS... Typical left policy of do it to them but not me, when De Idiot did it to liberals, they raised up more BS... Desegregate everything period, then cry me a river liberals...
Leave it to liberals to find racism in so many unnecessary things like "The sky is racist because White people get more clean air than Black people!
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Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM
 
Location: New York Area
16,606 posts, read 6,581,636 times
Reputation: 12780
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
On bias training, I think that many people don't know what bias is or what it entails and that it should be monthly or quarterly and a quick computer based module. I've done them many times at places I work and it does educate people about what bias is and potential scenarios of where it occurs.

In regards to people stating people should be race "blind" or "not see color" that is a fantasy and no one is color blind. People see color all the time because it is reality. Our society imbues us with certain biases towards people of particular backgrounds and appearances depending on our family and where we were reared. When you ignore that you have those biases they just exist, if you confront them, they will diminish. But to pretend something doesn't exist that does is kind of childish IMO.
What people are seeing is not color but lack of acculturation. Put bluntly, there are many of color who act and dress in a manner clearly designed to set themselves apart. Or for that matter name their children that way. I have a former black colleague who it never occurred to me to think about her color. She left Jamaica to maximize her potential and is now a full-time judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
On "being the first to integrate" black children have already been that test case back in 19th century through really the 1980s. As a black parent, I think that if white parents are concerned with integration that they need to "integrate" at majority black/brown schools with their children, not the other way around.
Sadly, the lack of discipline in majority black/brown schools makes it clear they wouldn't last more than a week there without serious injuries. Look what happens to teachers. I would post a video but since it's from a closed thread I think it would violate TOS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
On quotas, I didn't mention any quotas so not sure why you stated that. Maybe it has to do with my "color" lol. And that is joke but seriously many white people often bring up so-called "black" topics like Affirmative Action or "quotas" to me often for no reason when I said nothing about the subject. IMO that is one of those biases that people hold of blacks - that we care a whole lot about quotas and Affirmative Action. Not sure why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with schools.
The issue is an "elephant in a closet" issue, especially when the thought is to diversify Stuyvesant and Bronx Science by backing out Asian or Jewish pupils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Basically, if Asians in those schools are mean to or don't want my kid to attend - the fact that there have been black graduates of those schools who have stated that they had a difficult time being black in that environment - as a responsible black parent, I'm not sending my child to that school. I'm sure there are other decent schools with a larger black population.
And what were the "difficulties"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Every time I see these sorts of posts, it reminds me of Chicago elite high schools. I have little cousins in law in Chicago who attend selective enrollment high schools there. One of their selective enrollment schools is 99% black and is very highly rated (plus it is named after one of my favorite poets Gwendolyn Brooks). I'd prefer my kid go there than to Walter Payton which is more diverse and has higher test scores. Smart black kids who go to school with predominantly other smart black kids don't worry as much about other silly things that they don't need to be bothered with about race from their classmates and teachers. As Black Americans we deal enough with race issues in our adult life to where I don't want my kids dealing with it as kids.
That's fine, but I would welcome smart, achievement-oriented black kids anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eumaois View Post
Leave it to liberals to find racism in so many unnecessary things like "The sky is racist because White people get more clean air than Black people!
Or in the need to conceal this mural:


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Old Today, 04:24 AM
 
1,519 posts, read 859,099 times
Reputation: 2334
As a resident of NYC, Richard Carranza and Darnisa Amonte only care about 1 thing;

Seeing White and Asian people fail.

That's it.

That is effectively their only concern. To "level" the playing field. Let's try this in reverse; there are too many 7ft muscular black men in basketball, we need to force short non muscular people into basketball... only this logic is being applied to schools...

Nothing they have done has been geared towards providing more or better math and science classes to Black and Latin students. Nothing. If their policy was Black or Latin classes above x% get more calculators or whatever, I mean it would be somewhat unfair, but at least it would actually enhance the performance of at least a few students...

His crap is simply, rezone the White and Asian kids to schools that suck... that's it. And yes, I am saying the schools in primarily Black American (Black Africans work hard and smart) and Latin communities ...suck!

EDIT: Double Down: Regarding New York City Board of Education Chancellor Richard Carranza; profanity is necessary to accurately describe what an absolute piece of garbage he is.

Last edited by RageX; Today at 04:52 AM..
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