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Old Yesterday, 09:32 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
67,348 posts, read 34,285,763 times
Reputation: 14497

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
There are no homicides in natural law. Your statism is showing, per usual.
There is only pillage and rape, with Natural Law? The strong survive and the rest bow to the strongest master.
Murder and theft have always been met with a higher justice. Wars have been waged over them.
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Old Yesterday, 09:50 PM
 
1,273 posts, read 941,016 times
Reputation: 1456
I have known families that have an elderly family member and their late life care has torn the families apart. I can't blame people for going out on their own terms.
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Old Yesterday, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
15,487 posts, read 13,505,811 times
Reputation: 4702
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
It's called euthanasia, and we basically have it every state with hospice. When you agree to Living Wills, DNR and final directives etc, you are basically agree to be euthanize when you agree to hospice or palliative care.

They just word it or make you think it's "comfort care" and agreeing to medicine to "relieve pain" and "that may shorten your life" (to whatever length the hospice finds economically best for them). Hospice can and does, place patients into medical induced comas, overdose patients with morphine and other drugs and withholds food and water. causing death and the person to be gone before their time. The death certificate might say died of lung cancer or heart disease, but actually it was death by morphine or some other drug combo overdose. I don't care what anyone says we are euthanizing the elderly in this country already.
Republicans are against euthanasia. The platform of the Republican party is that federal funds should not be used for the drugs that cause the destruction of human life, and there should be a restoration of the Drug Enforcement Administrationís ban on the use of controlled substances for physician assisted suicide
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM
Status: "This is the best of all possible plutocracies." (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,633 posts, read 8,421,892 times
Reputation: 10899
Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
Republicans are against euthanasia. The platform of the Republican party is that federal funds should not be used for the drugs that cause the destruction of human life, and there should be a restoration of the Drug Enforcement Administration’s ban on the use of controlled substances for physician assisted suicide
So as usual, the official Republican platform is that you can't do something sensible because of reasons that only make sense to the fundamentally religious. (Obviously, many individual Republicans have more sense.)

Now I'm fine with the government drawing some legal lines and erecting a legal hoop or two here. The man in this story was in full control right to the end, and I wholeheartedly admire his actions and his attitude.
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Old Yesterday, 10:44 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 4,038,911 times
Reputation: 3936
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
So as usual, the official Republican platform is that you can't do something sensible because of reasons that only make sense to the fundamentally religious. (Obviously, many individual Republicans have more sense.)

Now I'm fine with the government drawing some legal lines and erecting a legal hoop or two here. The man in this story was in full control right to the end, and I wholeheartedly admire his actions and his attitude.
What is sensible about drugging an elderly person into unconsciousness and death? That's not natural death, but euthanasia. Hospice should be at least honest and tell patients the truth, they're going to be drugged unconscious and drugged until cardiac arrest.
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Old Yesterday, 11:06 PM
Status: "This is the best of all possible plutocracies." (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,633 posts, read 8,421,892 times
Reputation: 10899
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
What is sensible about drugging an elderly person into unconsciousness and death? That's not natural death, but euthanasia. Hospice should be at least honest and tell patients the truth, they're going to be drugged unconscious and drugged until cardiac arrest.
I wasn't talking about drugging a person without their knowledge or against their wishes. I'm not sure how you got that impression, but oh well.

As for hospice care, AFAIK all hospitals/nursing homes/hospices nowadays require an advance directive, in which the patient specifies exactly what they wish to be done or not done in case end-of-life care becomes an issue. And an honest institution will follow those directions to the letter. In the use of hospice centers especially, I doubt that any patients admitted to one are at all confused about why they are in a hospice as opposed to a regular hospital.
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Old Yesterday, 11:11 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 4,038,911 times
Reputation: 3936
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
I wasn't talking about drugging a person without their knowledge or against their wishes. I'm not sure how you got that impression, but oh well.
That's what hospice does. They drug the person unconscious and continue to drug the unconscious person until death if hospice is in a hurry and whatever financially is best for them.

Quote:
As for hospice care, I think that all hospitals/nursing homes/hospices nowadays require an advance directive, in which the patient specifies exactly what they wish to be done or not done in case end-of-life care becomes an issue. And an honest institution will follow those directions to the letter.
Yeah you or someone acting as your power of attorney signs "I agree to be treated with drugs that may shorten my life", and there you go, the drugs make the patient incoherent, unconscious and cause death.
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Old Yesterday, 11:14 PM
Status: "This is the best of all possible plutocracies." (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,633 posts, read 8,421,892 times
Reputation: 10899
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
that's what hospice does.



Yeah you or someone acting as your power of attorney signs "I agree to be treated with drugs that may shorten my life", and there you go, the drugs make the patient incoherent, unconscious and cause death.
Clearly, you literally don't know what you are talking about. No advance directive that I have ever seen reads anything like what you are saying.
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Old Yesterday, 11:18 PM
 
13,149 posts, read 4,038,911 times
Reputation: 3936
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Clearly, you literally don't know what you are talking about. No advance directive that I have ever seen reads anything like what you are saying.
Clearly I do know what I'm talking about. It is in the wording in forms I've seen hospice use. The terms are generic like the examples I gave. And hospice does frequently operate like I explained. They will insist and badger the patient to let them administer morphine and other drugs and once the patient says ok then the patient isn't long for this world. It is essentially an euthanasia program in practice. I don't care what anyone claims.
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Old Yesterday, 11:59 PM
Status: "This is the best of all possible plutocracies." (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,633 posts, read 8,421,892 times
Reputation: 10899
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
Clearly I do know what I'm talking about. It is in the wording in forms I've seen hospice use. The terms are generic like the examples I gave. And hospice does frequently operate like I explained. They will insist and badger the patient to let them administer morphine and other drugs and once the patient says ok then the patient isn't long for this world. It is essentially an euthanasia program in practice. I don't care what anyone claims.
And my experience with hospice care for my mother in a Roman Catholic hospital was literally like nothing you have claimed. They never badgered either her or us to do anything contrary to her directive. Neither the doctor nor the hospital took any step without consulting us. Nor did they object to her wish to refuse artificial ventilation and food, which is what I worried they'd do. (She was Protestant, not Catholic.)

Some years before her death, we had sat down with her, and interviewed her regarding end-of-life desires. (Physician-assisted suicide was never an option for her due to her religion, regardless of whether state law allowed it or not.) She was still healthy, but she was over 80. Among other things, we went over a standard advanced directive form with her, line by line. She had always been very clear throughout her life that she had no wish to have a long, drawn-out death, but of course, we needed to know the details of exactly what that meant to her. We asked her each question more than once, worded differently, to make sure we fully understood. And we recorded the whole conversation, in case anyone ever had any question.

So either you do not know what a standard advance directive form actually contains, or you put your relative in the care of a sub-standard institution. I can think of no other reason for your assertions.

BTW, I was a nurse once, and one of my sisters was a nurse her entire adult life. So we had both seen many advanced directives and participated in caring for dying people according to the terms of their directives. It simply doesn't work the way you think it does.

Last edited by jacqueg; Today at 12:19 AM..
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