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Old Yesterday, 11:21 AM
 
11,168 posts, read 2,907,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjshae View Post
Nope. That's the effect; you need to look at the root cause.
Back in the days when people were using and abusing opioid pain pills, there were FAR less overdoses and deaths, compared to today.


Opioid pills are manufactured by pharma companies, they have strict ingredient guidelines, the whole process is very regulated and controlled... heroin, on the other hand, is made in much less regulated facilities, it could have just about anything and everything in it when it reaches the end user!


It was 'safer' for addicts to abuse pain pills versus street heroin imo, but now that pain pills are almost impossible to get on the street, kids are STARTING on heroin!!
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Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Boston
8,333 posts, read 2,439,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
The government only allows licensed doctors to prescribe most medications to ensure exceptionally trained professionals with knowledge of the dangers and benefits of them can determine who gets them.

The government then says only licensed pharmacists are allowed to fill doctors' prescriptions in order to have a second line of defense of keeping potentially dangerous medications in check.

Now the government says it's not the responsibility of doctors or pharmacists who prescribe legal government approved medications but the company that makes the product the government gave them permission to make.
but but, it can't be my fault!


I was prescribed oxys on 2 occasions in the last five years for oral surgery. Ten pills each time. I have 17 left. Oxys have been around since the mid-90's. People claiming they didn't know they were addictive are most times lying or their IQ's are under 90.
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 AM
 
11,168 posts, read 2,907,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
It's not just people who are affected by this. Veterinarians also refuse to prescribe any opiates for the patients (pets). I wrote about this on the pet forum when my cat had to get surgery, he was out of pain meds but still in very clear pain. I went to the vet to ask if he could get a pain shot for the night, just to make him at least somewhat comfortable, and I was informed that they could, but they would not give him anything with opiates.

They gave him a pain shot - and it did nothing for his pain. My pet suffered after a major surgery because of this nonsense. Pets try really hard to mask their pain, so when you know, good and well, that your pet is suffering, just imagine how much suffering that is - and what it looks like on humans.

You don't fix a problem by banning it altogether, you go after those who knowingly give patients more than they should, and you go after those who abuse them. I'm getting sick and tired of this bs "make everyone else pay for it" mentality because some people are irresponsible.
Your vet is scared of having his office raided by DEA...thats why he is refusing to give out ANY opioids.


The DEA are the ones MAKING THESE LAWS!!!


People need to form a class action suit against DEA and take this to court!!! Ultimately, they do not have the right to know what meds any person is given by their doctor, we have laws in place that protect us against this kind of thing, we just have to use them.
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,127 posts, read 11,961,252 times
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that judgment made no sense!


doctor's are the link between pharma and patients.


Pharmacies distribute the drugs the doctors prescribe.


Doctors are the source of the problem.


After 8 plus years of school, a doctor does not know an opioid is addictive????


If an opioid was discovered that was not addictive, it would not be an opioid! It would make headline news around the world. It would be of cosmic consequence.


To imply doctors were not aware of an opioid's addictive properties or were tricked by the pharma rep is stunning!!!!


Every ad has to be cleared by the FDA. Labeling a drug is a long drawn out process performed in cooperation with the FDA. The regulatory process is complex and provides intimate detail with regard to the drug and its use. All work is done under strict FDA regs. The FDA does surpise inspections. Pharam has a quality assurance dept to make sure all processes are following protocol in preparation for any FDA surprise visit. The FDA can request, any request is a drop dead demand to pharma, any aspect of data that has aroused their curiosity. Post marketing studies are conducted to find any issues the statistical confidence and medical summaries missed. Pharma, at every stage from the drug discovery to new drug application and beyond is done under close scrutiny of the FDA.


Okay, so a doc prescribes an opioid to a patient. the Rx is good for only a limited number of refills.


Would it not alert a doctor to the fact that the patient is requesting more and more drug and that there is a problem or a problem brewing???


Did it not alert the FDA, doctors and pharmacists especially of the excess volume of drugs coming into their territory???


Okay it gets past the doc, now the pharmacist, who has infinitely more training than a doctor in pharmaceuticals, could see an inappropriate amount of drug going to any given patient. there is a system in which patients/prescriptions can be cross checked. A patient receiving an inappropriate amount of pills would stand out for action to be taken. Every drug handed out gets the FDA approved labeling, usage, contraindications, etc.


To make a company like J&J the source of the problem is folly! Big pharma should have been conscious of the opioid problem and that it would not end well for their reputation. Dare I say when euro companies get involved with American based companies, they bring a whole different set of cultural norms, that while tolerated in European countries would be illegal here.


the only reason is because it has deep pockets and one convenient target central to make lawsuits easier than going after individual doctors, pharmacists with limited resources.


The very first line of defense to realize there was an opioid epidemic were the doctors and pharmacists.


Emotion takes over the courtroom and again society misses the target by a mile as a problem festers.
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Old Yesterday, 11:59 AM
 
906 posts, read 282,392 times
Reputation: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Back in the days when people were using and abusing opioid pain pills, there were FAR less overdoses and deaths, compared to today.


Opioid pills are manufactured by pharma companies, they have strict ingredient guidelines, the whole process is very regulated and controlled... heroin, on the other hand, is made in much less regulated facilities, it could have just about anything and everything in it when it reaches the end user!


It was 'safer' for addicts to abuse pain pills versus street heroin imo, but now that pain pills are almost impossible to get on the street, kids are STARTING on heroin!!

in "the good old days" of the 1940s,50s,60s and into the the seventies what are now schedule II drugs were pretty available and of course abused by a small minority of people..if one removes the prohibition and makes these drugs safer and easily attainable paradoxically the addict has more time to contemplate sobriety..i abused drugs for 25 yrs and went to prison twice (short time) and those "consequences" become part of addiction and do NOT serve as a deterrent to the very addiction prone...
i sobered up when i just got sick and tired of "having" to put some substance in my body to be "normal" period..
in an effort to "protect" children our "war on drugs" has paradoxically made children into drug dealers because they ARE in the juvenile criminal system....the family and peer pressure to be sober would still be present if drugs were made a health issue and removed from the criminal system
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Old Yesterday, 12:39 PM
 
16,443 posts, read 4,322,324 times
Reputation: 11528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracer View Post
that judgment made no sense!

doctor's are the link between pharma and patients.

Pharmacies distribute the drugs the doctors prescribe.

Doctors are the source of the problem.

After 8 plus years of school, a doctor does not know an opioid is addictive????

If an opioid was discovered that was not addictive, it would not be an opioid! It would make headline news around the world. It would be of cosmic consequence.

To imply doctors were not aware of an opioid's addictive properties or were tricked by the pharma rep is stunning!!!!

Okay, so a doc prescribes an opioid to a patient. the Rx is good for only a limited number of refills.

Would it not alert a doctor to the fact that the patient is requesting more and more drug and that there is a problem or a problem brewing???

Did it not alert the FDA, doctors and pharmacists especially of the excess volume of drugs coming into their territory???
You should take some time and read the books on the subject. Listen to some of the podcasts with the people who wrote the books. You will learn a lot.

The logic above is that old "milk causes heroin addiction" reasoning because, after all, virtually every heroin and opiate addict started with milk.

There are really two FACTS you should start with:

1. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his NOT understanding it"
This is the case with doctors, salespeople, pharmacists and virtually everyone else involved in the chain. People will take the money almost every time - as long as there is "plausible deniability". Maybe you are chosen one who would not....take 100's of thousands in profits for doing something legal.

The Root of this is our Capitalist Predatory Medical System. This "crisis" is not a bad thing...it's a great thing! The amount of money that has been made already...and now that will be spread out to many others, will eventually be in the 100's of billions of dollars.

2. Further to #1, which is really hard to add to, the Drug Industry changed the laws (as you know, Congress doesn't actually read the bills) and changed a SINGLE WORD which made it so that many of the things you mention could not be done any longer...that is, checking up on people where there might be a problem (certain Docs or Pharmacists or Manufacturers).

This was passed by Blackburn (GOP, TN) and, of course, has a name which fools people:
"Ensuring Patient Access and Effective Drug Enforcement Act"

It's the "ensuring patient access" part that is the trick. What the law did was make it almost impossible to investigate.

Here's how the trick went.

The DEA old law had been able to freeze the shipment of drugs that it deemed posed an “imminent danger” to the community. The new law changed that standard by requiring the DEA to show “a substantial likelihood of an immediate threat” of death, serious bodily harm or drug abuse before it could stop a shipment of drugs.

What that meant is the millions of pills going somewhat was fully legal and not subject to investigation unless it could FIRST be proven that an IMMEDIATE (like NOW) threat of death exist....

What's the different between imminent and immediate? Ask Blackburn.....she took a lot of money from the opiate industry to pass this bill which did virtually nothing except ban the DEA from enforcing controls like you mention.

But why are we even talking about this? This is a feature! A good thing in Capitalist health care. Pills provide relief cheaper and who need to pay for PT or massage? For the cost of one PT session we could but 1,000 or more opiate pills.

This is a structural problem with our nation and our health care system. Until we Put The People First (behind the almighty dollar), this will continue in one way or another.

Everyone acts so outraged when, in fact, it's the system that you likely voted for (capitalist health care).
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Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
 
5,212 posts, read 2,291,785 times
Reputation: 4098
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
People in high places i.e. politicians will ALWAYS be able to get these meds when they need them. The rest of us poor jerks will have to resort to a bottle of gin and a half-dozen Tylenol to try to kill the pain after surgery or a severe injury, even cancer. You can't even get opiates in hospitals anymore





https://www.webmd.com/pain-managemen...at-hospitals#1


Two legal substances. booze and Tylenol that separately tear a human body apart over time, but when they are combined they rip the liver to shreds in a matter of weeks. We're talking a quarter-million deaths per year from alcohol and acetaminophen against the pittance of a few good-for-nothing addicts who got what they deserved.
yep. they only gave me 7 hydro codone for my mouth surgery...……...after that forced to eat tylenol like candy...……….or feel that heartbeat in my mouth with no sleep...………

just have to do like 40 years ago when I couldn't get some decent pain meds..... had to get a hold of my buddy who had some "under the counter" meds...…...
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM
 
16,443 posts, read 4,322,324 times
Reputation: 11528
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunner View Post
yep. they only gave me 7 hydro codone for my mouth surgery...……...after that forced to eat tylenol like candy...……….or feel that heartbeat in my mouth with no sleep...………

just have to do like 40 years ago when I couldn't get some decent pain meds..... had to get a hold of my buddy who had some "under the counter" meds...…...
When we were teens you could buy 100 Tuinols on the street for $15 easily....

When I was in high school in Center City Philly a guy told me about a Pharmacy that you could buy Qualudes OTC at. I walked in....and said "100 Qualudes please?" and the bottle came to the counter.

The guy who posted about the docs and pharmacists does not understand human nature. When a doc working his butt off for "the man" (these days docs are disposable employees of big health groups) sees the Pharma rep drive up in her Beemer and knows the Gal has a luxe condo at the beach, how do you think he feels?

Yep...just like most people would feel.

Tylenol is very dangerous as is aspirin. Opiates, in light (adequate) doses are actually some of the safest drugs around for those who tolerate them well.

It was a strange thing - in the US they mixed poisons with opiates and said "well, now if the patient abuses them at least we will get liver or kidney failure out of the deal".

That takes a special kind of ignorance......

They are developing some light and slow release new opiates which will be ideal for many patients.

I predict that sometime far into the future none of this will be an issue because the Victorian thinking will fall by the wayside...with the Forbidden Fruit overuse that accompanies it.
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Old Yesterday, 04:46 PM
 
5,212 posts, read 2,291,785 times
Reputation: 4098
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
When we were teens you could buy 100 Tuinols on the street for $15 easily....

When I was in high school in Center City Philly a guy told me about a Pharmacy that you could buy Qualudes OTC at. I walked in....and said "100 Qualudes please?" and the bottle came to the counter.

The guy who posted about the docs and pharmacists does not understand human nature. When a doc working his butt off for "the man" (these days docs are disposable employees of big health groups) sees the Pharma rep drive up in her Beemer and knows the Gal has a luxe condo at the beach, how do you think he feels?

Yep...just like most people would feel.

Tylenol is very dangerous as is aspirin. Opiates, in light (adequate) doses are actually some of the safest drugs around for those who tolerate them well.

It was a strange thing - in the US they mixed poisons with opiates and said "well, now if the patient abuses them at least we will get liver or kidney failure out of the deal".

That takes a special kind of ignorance......

They are developing some light and slow release new opiates which will be ideal for many patients.

I predict that sometime far into the future none of this will be an issue because the Victorian thinking will fall by the wayside...with the Forbidden Fruit overuse that accompanies it.
I remember tuinols and ludes very well
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Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Long Island
33,737 posts, read 14,216,812 times
Reputation: 7237
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Seriously? If they were after the BIG profits, they sure are not acting like it! Havent you read how difficult it is to even obtain opiate meds today?


Generally, if a big and powerful industry wants to make profits off something...they usually make it as easy to get as possible.
So you are claiming that it is difficult to get access to opioids, how is it that so many cities have such easy access to these drugs. If any other product was the cause of this amount of overdoses it would have been a national emergency.
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