confirmed: Sweden is NOT a socialist nation. (Representatives, environmentalist, Amish)
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Yes, and he also has said that he is a persuaded socialist. So we have to decide which word to take. You've decided to take one and ignore the other. Based on, as far as I can tell, nothing.
It would appear you paid zero attention to what I said here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007
Since it is extremely unlikely he would be holding up Denmark and Sweden as his role models if he really meant collective ownership of the means of production, I presume he's simply being a bit lazy with definitions or doesn't really care about definitions. As do many people.
After all, many intelligent people who should know better still are lazy and say "could of" instead of the correct "could have."
It would appear you paid zero attention to what I said here:
I paid perfect attention, but again, you present only one side of the story. You ignore what does not comport with the belief you apparently wish to hold, namely that Bernie is not a socialist.
What do you think about the post from 'Winterfall?'
What do you think about the post from 'Winterfall?'
You already attacked me once for speculating what's going on in Bernie's mind ("You have some means of climbing into Bernie's head?"). Now you want me to comment on somebody else's speculation about what goes on in Bernie's head?
If you're going to attack me for speculating on what goes on in Bernie's head, I don't see why I should bother.
You already attacked me once for speculating what's going on in Bernie's mind ("You have some means of climbing into Bernie's head?"). Now you want me to comment on somebody else's speculation about what goes on in Bernie's head?
If you're going to attack me for speculating on what goes on in Bernie's head, I don't see why I should bother.
In other words, you have no response, and wish to continue to wallow in denial. Reread the post by Winterfall:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
This isn't me theorizing, this is from his past affiliations and work (he is very old of course) with socialist groups.
In other words, this is not mere speculation, but is based on factual observation.
In other words, you have no response, and wish to continue to wallow in denial.
No, I was actually hoping you would have the decency to apologize for attacking me for speculating on what goes on in Bernie's head, if you wanted me to comment on somebody else's speculation on what goes on in Bernie's head. Sadly, it appears you didn't have that decency.
If you want me to speculate on what goes on in Bernie's head, you're going to have to tell me it's OK to speculate on what goes on in Bernie's head.
No, I was actually hoping you would have the decency to apologize for attacking me for speculating on what goes on in Bernie's head, if you wanted me to comment on somebody else's speculation on what goes on in Bernie's head. Sadly, it appears you didn't have that decency.
If you want me to speculate on what goes on in Bernie's head, you're going to have to tell me it's OK to speculate on what goes on in Bernie's head.
So time for you to take your ball and stomp home? Can't respond to Winterfall's post?
So time for you to take your ball and stomp home? Can't respond to Winterfall's post?
I see you still don't have the decency to apologize for attacking me for speculating on what goes on in Bernie's head. Since, after all, that's what you want me to do now.
You seem to also be forgetting that I'm not a Sanders fan, so frankly, I don't even give a damn what goes on in his head. Any speculation I make would be purely academic.
The definition of socialism is collective ownership of the means of production. Sweden doesn't have that. If we make up our own definitions of words, we can come to any conclusion about anything. But we have destroyed any possibility of rational discourse.
Aren't you mixing communism with socialism?
From the Communist manifesto:
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
Nationalization is a characteristic of pure communism.
Stealth socialism can operate by covertly controlling labor and industry via taxes, rules and regulations.
If you cannot work, buy, sell, hire, fire or operate a business without a license (permission) or paying taxes, you ARE not a "free" individual. Your chains may be fur lined, but master will spank if you clank them too loudly.
Aren't you mixing communism with socialism?
From the Communist manifesto:
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
Nationalization is a characteristic of pure communism.
Stealth socialism can operate by covertly controlling labor and industry via taxes, rules and regulations.
If you cannot work, buy, sell, hire, fire or operate a business without a license (permission) or paying taxes, you ARE not a "free" individual. Your chains may be fur lined, but master will spank if you clank them too loudly.
Fascism is government control (regulation) of the means of production (factories, farms, warehouses, stores, etc). Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. Communism is government ownership of everything, i.e., the abolition of private property. Social Democracy is private ownership of the means of production, but with high taxation and a big welfare state.
I would concede that with sufficient government control (regulation), "private ownership" can turn into a legal fiction, and fascism can morph into socialism. Likewise with social democracy. If tax rates hit 100%, obviously you have effectively morphed into communism. I don't think Sweden is close to that.
I don't get how you socialists don't get basic math or simple facts about this country.
USA is full of scumbags, criminals, and people who don't contribute jack to society. On top of that we have people who already are on some form of government assistance, and also a huge amount of people who abuse it all.
45% of Americans pay no income tax.
So, it the 55%'s job to pay for free healthcare, college, debt forgiveness, housing, etc.? How many trillions would all of this cost?
The USA has a large amount of dregs that drag society down. The socialist utopias with 10 million people don't.
Just look at prison statistics.
In 25 states more than 50% of births are Medicaid babies, and the national average is about 45%
Socialism would never work here, civil war would break out first. Half of the country already basically takes care of the other.
Just like you don't understand how to interpret that data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t
Once again, you never answered the question as to which is the real Bernie: his policy proposals or his self-description of "democratic socialist."
Do you think that Bernie is a)too dumb to know the difference between 'democratic socialism' and 'social democracy?' Or does he know the difference, but just intentionally and disingenuously conflates the two? It's gotta be one or the other.
"Socialism" is not merely a 'buzzword' (whatever that might mean). It's an important English word with a well-defined meaning: "collective ownership of the means of production." Do you believe Bernie Sanders is too dumb/ignorant to know that?
Dumb? No. Lazy? Yes. He's not known for actually accomplishing much during his time in government.
'Socialism' can be defined as collective (in practice, government) ownership of the means of production. Sweden clearly doesn't have that. It is best termed a 'social democracy,' which is very different from 'socialism' (whether 'democratic' or otherwise). Venezuela and Cuba are examples of socialism.
There are many aspects of the Swedish economy that might surprise the U.S. far-left. They have school vouchers, unlike the almost fully socialized (gov't run) public school system in the US. They also have health care vouchers, which Speaker Paul Ryan tried to advocate, and for which he was vilified by Democrats. And partially-privatized pensions, a proposal for which W Bush was vilified.
Both AOC and Bernie Sanders are members of 'Democratic Socialists of America,' who are dedicated to actual socialism, not 'social democracy,' again, two very different concepts. When AOC and Bernie cite Sweden as their desired model, they are either being ignorant or mendacious. But that's a matter of speculation. What we do know for sure is that they are WRONG.
I can make it even simpler:
Socialism is a governing policy.
Capitalism is an economic policy.
You can have both.
You can have one or the other.
You can have neither.
Having one doesn't mean you can't have the other.
The only real difference between us and Sweden is their government spends their tax dollars on their people, we spend them on special interests, warfare, etc. We can do free college tuition and it'd be a rounding error. We can do a single payer health insurance and it can be cheaper (we spend twice as much as the rest of the modern world, and have a highly inefficient system).
Last year we took in more tax dollars per person than ever... The money is there, it's just being wasted.
People like Bernie won't change that. The guy has spent much of his life in office and hasn't accomplished much and there's reason why that have to do with him as an individual (pretty similar to trump's personality faults, not the same one's, but issues that make you a bad leader), but that's another day.
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