U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-05-2019, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,843 posts, read 397,962 times
Reputation: 1720

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Really? If he really had those traits then who would worship him and allow him to maintain power? And before you start claiming his supporters like those kinds of traits you're completely wrong about most of us and those aren't his traits anyway. Only in the minds of the lying, spinning left do those traits exist in him.
Read your history. Germans loved Hitler; Italians loved Mussolini; many Russians loved Stalin. I'm just relating my own perceptions of the man. Most of the Leftist propaganda I can dismiss on my own, thank you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:11 PM
 
2,657 posts, read 714,833 times
Reputation: 2731
OP 205:Honest question for Democrats regarding your claim that Trump is "fascist" or a "dictator"

People reading this thread who honestly desire to learn a bit more about fascism, might want to read Madeleine Albright's most recent book: Fascism: A Warning

In it the former Secretary of State sounds the alarm about the rise in fascism around the world and in America. She writes very eloquently and with great authority on the fascist threat and the erosion of liberal democracy here and across the globe.

In the book, she argues that fascism is not an ideology; it’s a process for taking and holding power. A fascist is somebody who identifies with one group — usually an aggrieved majority — in opposition to a smaller group. It’s about majority rule without any minority rights. Which is why fascists tend to single out the smaller group as being responsible for or the cause of their grievances.

According to the Secretary, the important thing is that fascists aren’t actually trying to solve problems; they’re invested in exacerbating problems and deepening the divisions that result from them. They reject the free press and denounce the institutional structures within a society — like Congress or the judiciary.
She says that violence is a crucial element of fascism. Whatever else it is, fascism involves the endorsement and use of violence to achieve political goals and stay in power.

From personal observations during WWll ( she was a small girl when her family fled Czechoslovakia after the Nazis overran the country in 1939; after 10 days in hiding she and her parents escaped to Britain, and there lived through the blitz by night after night sleeping in the cellar) and from extensive studies and then from service as Sec of State, she is in a position to credibly describe what we almost always see in fascist regimes: that is propaganda being used to set people against each other without any potential solutions to any of the problems.

According to Albright, fascism is always, in the end, about stirring people up and giving them someone to hate.

In the book, she called Donald Trump “the most undemocratic president” in modern American history. It was published in 2018 and she stopped short of calling him a fascist. However, once, in an interview she said this: "I don’t call him a fascist. He’s certainly anti-democratic, and I say so in the book, but I don’t call him a fascist because he isn’t violent at present. If he ends up declaring an emergency at the border over immigration, then I might change my position. There’s a long history of fascists using “emergencies” to create fear and conflict, so that’s a potential red line. If Trump does that, and uses violence then he really is a bully with an army. "

In another interview I heard her say, "I think his approach to the free press, to democratic institutions, to the independent judiciary, is extremely dangerous and anti-democratic. And his general disdain for the rule of law is genuinely alarming."

The book is not about Trump, he is just mentioned in it. But warning about fascism and its rise and the tendencies we are seeing in our current president that are common to demagogues are highlighted and alarming and should indeed serve as a warning and not to be dismissed as some do with the not so clever and overused TDS slur. Ms. Albright was going to write this book no matter who got elected because she said she could see all these divisions and problems long before Trump took office.

Read this book to gain some insight and understanding about what we are witnessing and feeling today on this planet. There are a lot of forces coming together and creating an atmosphere of anger, and people have no idea what the solutions are, or if there are any solutions. Then some strongman comes along and says, “I have the answers, I can fix everything.” According to Madeleine Albright, this is when you get fascism.

P.S. I just located an excellent 2018 interview and book synopsis( far more thorough and coherent than my post, I am certain) that some may find interesting. This interview delves deeply into the dictator = Trump comparison and fascist tendencies. If you don't have time for the book you might enjoy this newer article..See link below.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...scism-a-warnin


* It is in his methods that Trump can be compared with, if not precisely likened to, the dictators of the 1930s. Fascists are typically masters of political theatre. They feed on and inflame grievances by setting “the people” against their “enemies”. Fascists tell their supporters that there are simple fixes for complex problems. They present as national saviors and conflate themselves with the state. They seek to subvert, discredit and eliminate liberal institutions.

Per Albright: "they often ascended to power through the ballot box and then undermined democracy from within."

She talked about a Mussolini quote about “plucking a chicken feather by feather” so that people will not notice the loss of their freedoms until it is too late.

She said, “It was Stalin who talked about the press being the enemy of the people."

Once again, may I say, the book is a great read and honestly approaches the topic the OP introduced. ( I have given many copies as gifts and I've read it twice)

Last edited by corpgypsy; 09-05-2019 at 05:32 PM.. Reason: located a print interview that posters may enjoy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:12 PM
 
17,270 posts, read 4,575,922 times
Reputation: 11925
OP seems to not mention that most Americans FAVOR immigration, including the deepest Red States who claim they need the labor.

He doesn't mention that Trump is acting by EDICT - yes, like a dictator, not by LAW. Law would involve Congress and actually reforming of immigration laws. You know...what they call "Comprehensive Immigration Reform"?

But work is too hard for the Tweeter and Golfer in Chief. He wants to just say something and have it be so.

To repeat, he's not smart enough or popular enough to become a true Dictator or Fascist leader. However, an important point here is that - if he WAS - the GOP would line up 95% behind him. That's the really scary part. One can excuse Trump being a know-nothing, but for pols of every stripe on the Right to kowtow to this Reality TV Star is abhorrent.

This is unforgivable because "doing the right thing" is most important when it is hard to do it.

There is little doubt that the Right in this country is intolerant and authoritarian. We can discuss to what degree....but it is never the less the situation we are in.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:32 PM
205 205 started this thread
 
338 posts, read 308,261 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
To the OP.

Maybe you are sincere, but I don't think you get it.

He is a WOULD-BE dictator and fascist....not actually one!

Please, name the major pieces of legislation he cajoled Congress into doing...HARD things, not tax cuts from debt and deficit (giving money away free is easy...and, only his party really went along).

To my knowledge, his accomplishments are about zero. Thinking or speaking or rallying doesn't make it so. Even Executive Orders don't make it so.

If you were even a semi-honest Rightie you would be down on that tax cut BIG time. After all, it goes 100% against what the Right has called their #1 issue for 8+ years - it increased the deficit VASTLY (doubled it) and will increase both the debt and deficit for the foreseeable future.

So right there - you lose.....in calling that a positive thing.

I'm not going to go blow by blow with you, but he HAS expressed admiration for
NK Great Leader
Putin
Duerte
and others who are the worst of the worst...authoritarians, totalitarians, etc.

Is is possible for someone to LOVE a bunch of Dictators and still not have those tendencies? Of course not. Notice that he doesn't LOVE the Will of the People - that is, he knows he didn't win the popular vote so - if anything - he should govern toward the center. But instead he governs solely for the 40% (base). That it itself is not American.

I could go on, but no need to. He doesn't have the smarts to be a real dictator or fascist. But he would if he could.

One of the Right's big issues is the deficit and the debt and he hasn't yet tackled that problem effectively which is to say he's been far from perfect. Can't argue that. What I do take issue with regarding that particular issue is the disingenuous of the left blaming the tax cuts themselves for the deficit/debt problem. Actual tax receipts received by the Treasury INCREASED the first full year of the tax cuts compared to the year prior to the tax cuts despite the lower tax rates. That is a documented fact and is backed by hard numbers and data. Maybe tax revenue would have been even higher under the pre tax cut rates but for obvious reasons that's a hypothetical that can't be known. The hard data and numbers are what they are.

SPENDING is the problem, not the tax cuts which as has been pointed out actually led to higher tax revenue collected by the Treasury. The president at any given moment gets both the blame and credit for increases in the deficit and debt despite it being both the president and the congress who are at fault. Clinton, for example, gets credit for surpluses that a Republican led House and Senate had a huge part in creating when Clinton signed much of their legislation into law. Clinton gets the credit which comes with the territory good or bad but my point is both parties when in power have been spending like mad for the better part of at least 40 years. Doesn't matter how high it low taxes are when Congress is hell bent on rarely if ever passing a balanced budget and spending every last tax dollar and then some and just borrowing more money from China, printing more of our own, etc to.go into further debt. And before it's brought up, tax cuts aren't "paid for" by our taxes. That's OUR damn money!! It's not the property of the government to be "given away" in the first place.

Sorry for the tangent on taxation and spending, but the tax cuts "for the rich" leads to lower tax receipts and therefore deficits talking point from the left has to continually be debunked over and over again. As for the answers and those that say "well, he's not really a fascist dictator but it's only because we have checks and balances that prevent that. He would if he could be", the bottom line is his policy ACTIONS have been far from fascist. It's also pure projection.

Case in point, Trump is the only Republican president (with Reagan being the only slight exception) in my lifetime that doesn't roll over and cower to the vicious media attacks that every Republican president or Republican presidential candidate constantly faces from Democrats and the liberal mainstream media. He's the only Republican politician that I know of to aggressively use the left's playbook and win at all costs tactics against them and the left (both the Democratic party and the liberal mass media) absolutely hates him for it. The left is so use to Republicans not fighting back that Trump's aggressive use of their own smear tactics only seems shocking because they are so use to getting away with using the same disgusting political rhetoric and demagoguery they claim Trump uses they don't know how to react.

The biggest shock of Trump's presidency to me hasn't been that he's managed to be a reasonably effective leader. Though he had little to no political experience and had never held elected office before taking office, he at least had experience managing and working with others and running a large company so the fact he's done a reasonable job isn't shocking. What is shocking is just how dishonest and power hungry the government elites and the power brokers who benefit from the system of the Washington establishment (both in politics....especially the Democratic party...and in the media) is. These folks will go to almost any lengths to destroy any political outsider they can't control or see as a threat to their power. They mocked Trump mercilessly when they thought he had to win and instead of doing any self reflecting or soul searching when their candidate lost, they've pitched a now 3 year hissy fit that would make a 3 year old who had his toys taken away on Christmas morning proud. They've gone so far as cheering on the full political weaponization of the intelligence community and arguing for trashing or throwing away every norm this country was founded on (innocent until proven guilty, the rule of law, the Electoral College, a 9 person Supreme Court, the nation's borders and sovereignty, much of the Constitution, etc
....ANYTHING....to get rid of Donald Trump.

TDS infected Trump haters in the DNC, Washington establishment, and the mainstream media have basically become Bill Murray's character in Caddyshack with Trump as the gopher/pest they're trying to destroy and like Bill Murray's character in the movie they've proven they're willing to blow up the country (to heck with the collateral damage) to take out Trump.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:44 PM
Status: "unless there is no "there" there." (set 12 hours ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,356 posts, read 787,245 times
Reputation: 1412
Quote:
Originally Posted by 205 View Post
I take it from the lack of responses that the only reason Trump is called a fascist is because....Orange Man bad!!
Most people do not know the meaning of 'fascist.' The word was invented by Benito Mussolini. He took it from an ancient Roman symbol called the 'fasces.'

Fascism was a reaction to the idea of socialism. Socialism meant gov't ownership of the means of production (factories, farms, warehouses, stores, etc.) Mussolini's idea was to allow private ownership of the means of production, but with heavy regulation thereof. Quoth Mussolini: "Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.…"

Donald Trump, with his obsession of de-regulation, is actually the polar opposite of fascism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:48 PM
 
17,270 posts, read 4,575,922 times
Reputation: 11925
Quote:
Originally Posted by 205 View Post
One of the Right's big issues is the deficit and the debt and he hasn't yet tackled that problem effectively which is to say he's been far from perfect.


TDS infected Trump haters in the DNC, Washington establishment, and the mainstream media have basically become Bill Murray's character in Caddyshack with Trump as the gopher/pest they're trying to destroy and like Bill Murray's character in the movie they've proven they're willing to blow up the country (to heck with the collateral damage) to take out Trump.
No, they did take on that problem - and threw it in the trash. We were well on our way to getting the Deficit way down. It's not that they haven't gotten to it yet - it's that they intentionally stole money from our children to give some free money - that was not needed - away.

Orange Man calls himself the King of Debt. Yet you don't seem to believe him? The right isn't about the deficit and debt....it was only a ruse when a black dude was handed a country and economy that the Right had put 10+ trillion behind the curve.....that they came up with the ruse. Then they instantly forgot all about it.

As far as TDS, the numbers prove you very wrong...unless you are ready to admit a basic fact.

30% MORE American disapprove of Trump than Approve.

So many you are agreeing that he acts like a Dictator since the Majority has been unhappy since the first week.

Please, look carefully at this chart. The American people did give Trump a chance.....which was gracious of them since he proved himself a kook during the primaries and election.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ex_cid=rrpromo

By one month in it was clear that he was not qualified. You cannot blame that on TDS.....if he would have really be acting during the primary and election and then, once in office, came out decent and Presidential, those charts would not look like they do.

You can claim TDS all you like if it makes you feel better. But reality calls. It's him and his deplorables that are turning off decent Americans to an extend that no other POTUS in recent history has (scroll down the page of charts).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:49 PM
 
8,343 posts, read 5,262,461 times
Reputation: 14172
Quote:
Originally Posted by 205 View Post
Are the following actions or policies those you'd associate with a "fascist" or a "dictator"?

4) Re-negotiating trade deals ...

5) Imposing a travel ban ...

6) A policy to do everything legally and constitutionally allowed to secure our borders ...

7) A policy and effort to outlaw late term, third trimester abortion with the exception of rape, incest, or threat to the life of a mother....

That's just to name a few. Which of these policies either passed or supported by President Trump make him a "fascist" or a "dictator"? ...
Which policies? Of the ones that you've selected, I have highlighted four... using your exact words, and adding none of my own.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:51 PM
Status: "unless there is no "there" there." (set 12 hours ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,356 posts, read 787,245 times
Reputation: 1412
Quote:
Originally Posted by corpgypsy View Post
Honest question for Democrats regarding your claim that Trump is "fascist" or a "dictator"

People reading this thread who honestly desire to learn a bit more about fascism, might want to read Madeleine Albright's most recent book: Fascism: A Warning

In it the former Secretary of State sounds the alarm about the rise in fascism around the world and in America. She writes very eloquently and with great authority on the fascist threat and the erosion of liberal democracy here and across the globe.
...


Once again, may I say, the book is a great read and honestly approaches the topic the OP introduced. ( I have given many copies as gifts and I've read it twice)
I have acquired a copy of this book thanks to your recommendation, and will read it. I'll post a book report on CD when done.

I'm still telling you that the word 'fascism' was coined by Mussolini, and it is his ideas that define the word. Albright appears to not know whereof she speaks, but I'll try my best to read with an open mind. Thanks again for the recommendation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:55 PM
 
17,270 posts, read 4,575,922 times
Reputation: 11925
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Most people do not know the meaning of 'fascist.' The word was invented by Benito Mussolini. He took it from an ancient Roman symbol called the 'fasces.'

Fascism was a reaction to the idea of socialism. Socialism meant gov't ownership of the means of production (factories, farms, warehouses, stores, etc.) Mussolini's idea was to allow private ownership of the means of production, but with heavy regulation thereof. Quoth Mussolini: "Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.…"

Donald Trump, with his obsession of de-regulation, is actually the polar opposite of fascism.
rather then a history and linguistic lesson, why not be more general about what it means in the current day.....?????

"Fascism (/ˈfćʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."

Now, remember, I didn't say he was a full blown Fascist......but taking these basics:

Authoritarian - check
Nationalism - check
Power by Edict - check
Suppression of Opposition - he wants to do it...shut down the press, etc. but cannot.
Regimentation of Society - yeah, some of that....
Regimentation of the ECONOMY - BINGO, 100%

He's pretty far down those lines.

It can get muddy with these words - authoritarian, dictator, totalitarian, fascist.

But what we definitely know if that he is not slanted toward the traditional values of our country - tolerance, immigration, rule of law, will of the people, happiness of the people, etc.....

Putin, for example, would be classified as a Totalitarian.

I repeat - Trump isn't intelligent enough to be any of these things ......given the constraints of our system. But does he have these tendencies? Of course. He suggested executing the Central Park Five (who were innocent) and was part and parcel of them being locked away for many years.

That's totalitarianism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-05-2019, 04:58 PM
205 205 started this thread
 
338 posts, read 308,261 times
Reputation: 490
Quote:
According to the Secretary, the important thing is that fascists aren’t actually trying to solve problems; they’re invested in exacerbating problems and deepening the divisions that result from them. They reject the free press and denounce the institutional structures within a society — like Congress or the judiciary.
She says that violence is a crucial element of fascism. Whatever else it is, fascism involves the endorsement and use of violence to achieve political goals and stay in power.
Ironically, a strong case can be made that almost everything mentioned in the above quote could is currently describes the left's behavior in both this country and other countries around the world.

In the U.S., which side is the one advocating for tearing down long held America institutions in a desperate attempt to gain or regain power? Trump and Republicans? Are they the ones desperately trying to get rid of the Electoral College, trying to stack the Supreme Court, trying to single out, isolate, and demonize a group of people (straight, white males) based on characteristics they can't change? As someone who has been an independent, centrist almost my whole life, I'm far more afraid of the current version of the Democratic party regaining power than I am of Trump keeping it.

Speaking of fascist behavior and retaining or regaining power at all costs, look what is going on in the UK with Brexit. The Parliament is openly and defiantly denying the will of voters in England who voted fair and square to leave the EU but like the globalists in the U.S., those in the EU aren't going to let a little thing like the will of the little people winning an election according to long established legal precedent and hundreds of years of tradition get in their way of seizing or maintaining power. Yet according to these people both in America and abroad, it is Trump who is the fascist. Talk about projection and a stunningl lack of self awareness. Wow!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top