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Old 09-05-2019, 05:12 PM
Status: "unless there is no "there" there." (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,380 posts, read 795,985 times
Reputation: 1434

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
rather then a history and linguistic lesson, why not be more general about what it means in the current day.....?????

"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."....
Why not be more "general" (whatever that means)? Because words have meanings, and if we don't know them we can't possibly have an intelligent conversation. Mussolini coined 'fascism,' and his writings define it. Your definition is flat wrong.

Abraham Lincoln asked (paraphrase) "How many legs does a dog have if we call the tail a leg?" Lincoln answered his own question: "Four. Calling the tail a leg does not make it a leg."

George Orwell thought that the word 'fascism' should be entirely discarded because: ""Fascism,' is almost entirely meaningless." He thought that it had been distorted beyond all repair by definitions such as the one you posted.

I say it is still a useful word if used in accordance with the ideas of Mussolini, but I'm beginning to wonder if Orwell wasn't right.
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Old 09-05-2019, 05:43 PM
 
2,702 posts, read 725,044 times
Reputation: 2766
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
I have acquired a copy of this book thanks to your recommendation, and will read it. I'll post a book report on CD when done.

I'm still telling you that the word 'fascism' was coined by Mussolini, and it is his ideas that define the word. Albright appears to not know whereof she speaks, but I'll try my best to read with an open mind. Thanks again for the recommendation.
"Albright appears to not know whereof she speaks???"

I don't understand why you again are saying this about her? She quotes Mussolini as I mentioned in my post. She writes of Mussolini in the book. The "coining of a phrase" or name is not as concerning to me as the process for taking and holding power.

As I mentioned to you once before she traces fascism’s roots, calls out the global rise of right-wing authoritarian regimes, and expresses grave concern about divisions, resentments, and isolationism in the United States.


I do hope you like the book.

Last edited by corpgypsy; 09-05-2019 at 05:58 PM..
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Old 09-05-2019, 05:50 PM
Status: "unless there is no "there" there." (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
4,380 posts, read 795,985 times
Reputation: 1434
Quote:
Originally Posted by corpgypsy View Post
She quotes Mussolini as I mentioned in my post. She writes of Mussolini in the book. The "coining of a phrase" or name is not as concerning to me as the process for taking and holding power.
OK, I have my copy in my hot little hands, and will start reading it tonight. Thanks again for the recommendation.

Again, the definitions of words are important. Those who use words they can't define (or define wrongly) literally don't know what they're talking about.
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Old 09-05-2019, 05:50 PM
 
5,820 posts, read 1,170,111 times
Reputation: 2287
He might not be a tater, but he certainly can be a Richard!
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
14,650 posts, read 8,144,096 times
Reputation: 54147
Passing a tax cut for the rich and blowing up the deficit? That's a good thing?

Supporting arms is easy when you have a strong NRA lobby supporting Republican's reelections. Killing of innocent children in schools is what? Collateral damage?

Yes, prison reform gets two thumbs up.

I'm all in favor of renegotiating trade deals. China needed to be checked a long time ago, however, I don't think Trump is the one capable of doing it. China has just been given permission to move ahead on the Pacific rim without the U.S. being part of the new CPTPP. Ivankakins got her trademarks from China though.

Increasing manufacturing? Where?

Imposing a travel ban? Really? What about the Saudi's? That's where the 911 terrorists came from. Khashoggi? Crickets? No consequences?

Securing our borders? Okay I'm laughing now. How about we fine Trump org for hiring illegals and keeping them secret well into his presidency. Just move them from place to place. That'll work right?

Free speech and freedom of the press? Well that's a reach. How about free speech for the haters that support Trump and repress those that disagree. Fake news, enemy of the people.

Even more disturbing is Trump's hurricane deflection narrative to hide the fact that he's taking lots of money away from Ukraine to build his vanity wall. Who benefits from that? His daddy Putin?

Trump is taking away money from our allies that was meant to strengthen resistance to Putin for our European allies. Who benefits from that. Daddy Putin?

Trump wants Russia back in the G8? Why does a murderous dictator who invades a country using military force deserve to be back in the G8?

Trump is turning us away from our allies and falling in love with dictators and thugs. He trying to undermine out Democracy every day. He won't succeed, but he does as much as he can to grab more and more power. Is that fascist?
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:42 AM
 
17,390 posts, read 4,599,550 times
Reputation: 11990
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Why not be more "general" (whatever that means)? Because words have meanings, and if we don't know them we can't possibly have an intelligent conversation. Mussolini coined 'fascism,' and his writings define it. Your definition is flat wrong.

Abraham Lincoln asked (paraphrase) "How many legs does a dog have if we call the tail a leg?" Lincoln answered his own question: "Four. Calling the tail a leg does not make it a leg."

George Orwell thought that the word 'fascism' should be entirely discarded because: ""Fascism,' is almost entirely meaningless." He thought that it had been distorted beyond all repair by definitions such as the one you posted.

I say it is still a useful word if used in accordance with the ideas of Mussolini, but I'm beginning to wonder if Orwell wasn't right.
I guess I somewhat agree.

Authoritarianism, Totalitarianism and Dictatorial are much more clear.

Especially Authoritarianism.....the present type usually aligning with RWA (Right Wing Authoritarianism) which is defined clearly by agreement with many different phrases and statements. But, in short, an RWA believes that suspension of laws and norms and kowtowing to ONE authority figure (or a very few) is absolutely the only way to solve problems.

Put another way, they don't believe in the US Constitution or our US norms nor the norms of The Enlightenment which have informed the liberal nations of W. Europe.

Since you are an avid reader, might I suggest the FREE PDF on RWA? It is very informative as it answered many of our question about how the US citizens followed GWB into tragedy.

https://theauthoritarians.org/Downlo...oritarians.pdf

"On the national scene some will be frustrated by prosperity, internal tranquility, and international peace--all of which significantly dim the prospects for a demagogue -in-waiting. Others will benefit from historical crises that automatically drop increased power into a leader’s lap. But ultimately, in a democracy, a wannabe tyrant is just a comical figure on a soapbox unless a huge wave of supporters lifts him to high office. That’s how Adolf Hitler destroyed the Weimar Republic and became the Fuhrer. So we need to understand the people out there doing the wave. Ultimately the problem lay in the followers."
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:43 AM
 
1,004 posts, read 462,668 times
Reputation: 3035
Quote:
Originally Posted by corpgypsy View Post
OP 205:
People reading this thread who honestly desire to learn a bit more about fascism, might want to read Madeleine Albright's most recent book: Fascism: A Warning

In it the former Secretary of State sounds the alarm about the rise in fascism around the world and in America. She writes very eloquently and with great authority on the fascist threat and the erosion of liberal democracy here and across the globe.
Ah yes, Madeleine Albright, the lady who stood over a mass grave in Rwanda wearing high heels, clutching a designer purse, and shed a few crocodile tears. She and Bill Clinton stood by as hundreds of thousands of innocents were murdered — sorry, in my book she has no standing to discuss infamy or claim moral superiority over evil men like Mussolini.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:53 AM
Status: "I ordered the Code Red that killed Santiago!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Boston, MA
11,880 posts, read 8,478,232 times
Reputation: 5910
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
He isn't a dictator, primarily because our political system prevents him from being one.

He is a dictator wannabe/admirer. He wishes he could be a dictator.

If our political system would allow him to put a bullet in the next person that heckled him on the street he would in a heartbeat, no second thought necessary. Pretty standard behavior for sociopathic narcissists.

Luckily he would have to be the leader of some of the countries he cozies up to like North Korea in order to actually have that power.
How many hecklers did he kill before he became president?
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Seattle
1,872 posts, read 406,337 times
Reputation: 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Most people do not know the meaning of 'fascist.' The word was invented by Benito Mussolini. He took it from an ancient Roman symbol called the 'fasces.'

Fascism was a reaction to the idea of socialism. Socialism meant gov't ownership of the means of production (factories, farms, warehouses, stores, etc.) Mussolini's idea was to allow private ownership of the means of production, but with heavy regulation thereof. Quoth Mussolini: "Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.…"

Donald Trump, with his obsession of de-regulation, is actually the polar opposite of fascism.
Yes, that is the original meaning of the word. But the meanings of words can change with time and experience.

Facism (noun)
  • A political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
  • A tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
No we're not yet there yet. Fortunately. Thank goodness for balance of power.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:06 AM
 
1,004 posts, read 462,668 times
Reputation: 3035
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjshae View Post
Yes, that is the original meaning of the word. But the meanings of words can change with time and experience.
Oh, just like Newspeak in Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four. Doubleplusgood comrade, doubleplusgood!
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