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Old 09-08-2019, 07:20 PM
 
4,588 posts, read 8,350,711 times
Reputation: 1735

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkmarkblue View Post
Alec Holowka got fired from his job, and shortly after killed himself.
Technically Benson and Hockenberry were business partners, not employers; they had already released the game although they were preparing for a re-release. Even so he was still a rights-holder, and having clients or business partners cut somebody off is a similar issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
While this case isn't the same as the criminal case of Michelle Carter, the teen girl who encouraged her mentally ill boyfriend to commit suicide while she texted him on her cell phone, all the way to his death after he wanted to end the attempt, I think there are a lot of similarities.

Carter was charged and convicted of manslaughter afterward by trial. The jury found she was the one controlling life and death, and for whatever reasons of her own, chose death by cell phone for her boyfriend.

Was Carter mentally ill herself? The jury didn't think so, but it was her defense during the trial.
One difference between this case and the Carter case is that Carter directly asked the boyfriend to commit suicide and continued to press for it even when the boyfriend said he didn't want to do it. Quinn simply posted the allegation of bad behavior, and although she knew that Holowka had been very mentally unstable, she did not directly ask him to commit suicide. I could see a defamation suit, but I do not see a criminal defamation indictment, let alone manslaughter.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:15 AM
 
4,588 posts, read 8,350,711 times
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There is some startup press article saying that Quinn had some tweets that contradicted her statements about Holowka: https://web.archive.org/web/20190908...falling-apart/

This has screencaps though some link to archive dot today archives of them. Good idea to check the wayback machine to see if they have actual copies of the others.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,761 posts, read 11,769,903 times
Reputation: 4403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicman View Post
There is some startup press article saying that Quinn had some tweets that contradicted her statements about Holowka: https://web.archive.org/web/20190908...falling-apart/

This has screencaps though some link to archive dot today archives of them. Good idea to check the wayback machine to see if they have actual copies of the others.
I dont know why people post stuff like this. How many victims do you know, ask them why they didnt speak daily on what they are going through and maybe you will see why an argument like this is so flawed.

Im pretty sure you dont live tweet your stresses of life either. Heck, im 100% you tell people you are fine when you are having a horrible day.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:29 AM
 
4,588 posts, read 8,350,711 times
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There are no "easy" solutions to this.

The best practice is to use the "trust but verify" method - take their accusations seriously but reserve final judgment until after the legal processes are done. Trying to believe people who state they are victims uncritically can ruin multiple lives, and people have lied about being assaulted/victimizing. Trying to uncritically attack accused people who turn out to be innocent is worse victimization, and is against the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty" which was previously reserved for the government/courtroom but now may have to be applied to informal society too.

And it is important to punish people who are proven to have deliberately lied (rather than being honestly mistaken, as that's happened too, or those who are mentally ill and make false accusations for that reason) about being victimized as they make it harder for real victims to be believed.

I do not know victimized people, but I am aware that they need to have the strength to go forward and make a case in the courtroom and/or otherwise take the proper steps. Knowing the above, they must endure the steps, even if it's painful, even if the authorities don't initially believe them, even if they get retaliated against, even if they perceive society is against them, even if it's humiliating, for the good of people who are/can be falsely accused.

Re: "Im pretty sure you dont live tweet your stresses of life either. Heck, im 100% you tell people you are fine when you are having a horrible day." // I have no reason to tweet my stresses; I would talk about them in person with a few trusted people. In general society I would say "I'm fine" as it's just the social thing to do. If it was a serious matter I would go to counseling or authorities, as necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
I dont know why people post stuff like this. How many victims do you know, ask them why they didnt speak daily on what they are going through and maybe you will see why an argument like this is so flawed.

Im pretty sure you dont live tweet your stresses of life either. Heck, im 100% you tell people you are fine when you are having a horrible day.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:36 PM
 
113 posts, read 17,715 times
Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicman View Post
There are no "easy" solutions to this.

The best practice is to use the "trust but verify" method - take their accusations seriously but reserve final judgment until after the legal processes are done. Trying to believe people who state they are victims uncritically can ruin multiple lives, and people have lied about being assaulted/victimizing. Trying to uncritically attack accused people who turn out to be innocent is worse victimization, and is against the mantra of "innocent until proven guilty" which was previously reserved for the government/courtroom but now may have to be applied to informal society too.

And it is important to punish people who are proven to have deliberately lied (rather than being honestly mistaken, as that's happened too, or those who are mentally ill and make false accusations for that reason) about being victimized as they make it harder for real victims to be believed.

I do not know victimized people, but I am aware that they need to have the strength to go forward and make a case in the courtroom and/or otherwise take the proper steps. Knowing the above, they must endure the steps, even if it's painful, even if the authorities don't initially believe them, even if they get retaliated against, even if they perceive society is against them, even if it's humiliating, for the good of people who are/can be falsely accused.

Re: "Im pretty sure you dont live tweet your stresses of life either. Heck, im 100% you tell people you are fine when you are having a horrible day." // I have no reason to tweet my stresses; I would talk about them in person with a few trusted people. In general society I would say "I'm fine" as it's just the social thing to do. If it was a serious matter I would go to counseling or authorities, as necessary.
Not for nothing. Thier are no winners here. The situation with Zoë Quinn and Alex holowka are both at a loss at the end of the day. No winners or losers in this situation. I hope Zoe Quinn and her sjw/feminist flock learns thier lesson after this.

I had to give you a rep point on this.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:44 PM
 
52,793 posts, read 42,399,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
I agree with everything you are saying. False accusations happen.

My point here, more or less, is that if this guy was willing to take his life based on 2 days of social media backlash, then nothing was going to stop his suicide. Going to the police(what the OP suggested) would still mean the company he worked for would have cut ties, still meant everyone found out on social media, and so on and so forth. Nothing changes for this particular case.

All that being said, I feel the OP's argument is very vague and somewhat changing which is a problem when nailing down what we are actually debating.

Are we debating social media mobs ?
Are we debating victim rights and how they cope(is it ok to out someone as an abuser) ?
Are we debating if the allegations are true ?
Are we debating his mental health and what different actions would have changed the outcome ?

At first, The OP came off as, "he is guilty, but deserved his day in court"; I had a problem with this because victims are not in my opinion ever responsible for the actions of their abusers. If you cant live with yourself because you hurt someone else, that is your problem. This does not mean I would ever support or tell someone to commit suicide, only that i would never blame a victim for telling their life story.

But now, its seems like the Op's argument has changed to "She probably lied and caused this guys death." if the latter is the case, then this is a a different argument all together.
You are absolutely correct, there are several different discussion points and you did a nice job of summarizing.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:03 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,528 posts, read 4,290,810 times
Reputation: 4987
Interesting article on this from an even more interesting source.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/ex...falling-apart/

In summary her tweets issued at the times of the alleged abuse, contradict the claims she is making.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:19 AM
 
1,840 posts, read 452,217 times
Reputation: 558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Interesting article on this from an even more interesting source.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/ex...falling-apart/

In summary her tweets issued at the times of the alleged abuse, contradict the claims she is making.
Just in case if that article was deleted. There's a copy saved on the Wayback Machine. https://web.archive.org/web/20190910...falling-apart/

There's a vlog who talk ot that article in question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scae...ature=youtu.be

One post on Twitter mentionned then some folks suspected then Zoe Quinn hacked some websites.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
8,470 posts, read 3,324,857 times
Reputation: 15202
At this point I don't know why anyone in the gaming industry would consent to be alone in a room with Zoe Quinn.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:09 PM
 
4,588 posts, read 8,350,711 times
Reputation: 1735
Somebody posted all of the archive.is links to the various tweets on an imgur page https://imgur.com/a/c4SxE3m . I am very glad they did this.

Hopefully the ball gets rolling on a campaign to ask people to reconsider "cancel culture".
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