U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-15-2019, 08:19 PM
 
5,256 posts, read 2,317,090 times
Reputation: 4180

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowne View Post
There is a thread on this from a few days ago. Perhaps a moderator can merge the threads.

Mob shaming and destroying people’s lives has gotten out of control.
just a modern version of this old sickening practice...……

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vigilante

worth reading the link as it explains in detail why it is so like this Twitter and facebook ruining of lives...…...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-15-2019, 08:21 PM
 
5,256 posts, read 2,317,090 times
Reputation: 4180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicman View Post
I am aware that places can fire for "no reason", but I wonder if mob-fueled rumors count as a "wrong reason" and whether they can file lawsuits for wrongful termination (it probably depends on the state)

I am aware that schools have moral turpitude clauses that forbid "immoral behavior", but it would seem wrongful to fire/non-renew only based on hearsay rather than having evidence
LOL. welcome to "right to work" laws...……….
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2019, 08:33 PM
 
203 posts, read 72,177 times
Reputation: 324
Good video on it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuTFy1S2x3g
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-15-2019, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,898 posts, read 34,021,833 times
Reputation: 52393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Yes, it can. It can destroy your reputation with anyone else having access to it and if you are in an industry where your reputation matters you will have a hard time recovering. It can allow reporters in mainstream news media to write or report about the accusations, without any additional proof, because they justify they are reporting on the tweets/mob response and not rumors. I’ve known teachers who got non-renewed, who had no social media themselves, based on mob whipped up rumors on Facebook or Twitter.
The point I was trying to make is what you don't know can't hurt you mentally/emotionally. How likely are you to be attacked if you don't post anything there yourself? Do companies really make make employees post anything on social media more than advertising? Since I'm not on it nor will I ever be (because I have privacy issues with it), I really don't know this. Do you have the right to sue people who libel you (I assume it's libel because it is written although I suppose you could call it slander if it's done in a video) on social media? Couldn't a teacher with no social media who got fired for something untrue said on social media turn around and sue the school district as well as the person who said it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2019, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,527 posts, read 4,290,810 times
Reputation: 4987
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
The point I was trying to make is what you don't know can't hurt you mentally/emotionally. How likely are you to be attacked if you don't post anything there yourself? Do companies really make make employees post anything on social media more than advertising? Since I'm not on it nor will I ever be (because I have privacy issues with it), I really don't know this. Do you have the right to sue people who libel you (I assume it's libel because it is written although I suppose you could call it slander if it's done in a video) on social media? Couldn't a teacher with no social media who got fired for something untrue said on social media turn around and sue the school district as well as the person who said it?
If a mob of enraged villagers come for you with pitchforks and burning torches, but you didn't attend the village meeting, can they hurt you?

The issue is that sure, you can sue for libel or defamation, but you'd have to prove that it was untrue, and to do that you'd need to know what's being said. Further, your employer, colleagues, associates, spouse might be completely aware of the claims and act on those claims without any further evidence. So you're fired, lose your seat on the PTA, are barred from the golf club, or whatever. While you might have some form of legal redress, it's not guaranteed, nor is it entirely repairable. Suppose your spouse files for divorce based on social media claims you had several sexual affairs with minors, or sexually harassed former employees, how you going to fix that, even if you stop the divorce, your marriage is going to be entirely different afterwards.

That's the issue, it's not the injury of the postings, it's the effects that follow from those postings that often are nothing more than one person making uncorroborated claims, and hundreds dogpiling onto those claims and inflaming the situation.
__________________
My mod posts will always be in red.
The Rules • Infractions & Deletions • Who's the moderator? • FAQ • What is a "Personal Attack" • What is "Trolling" • Guidelines for copyrighted material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2019, 11:14 AM
 
203 posts, read 72,177 times
Reputation: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
If a mob of enraged villagers come for you with pitchforks and burning torches, but you didn't attend the village meeting, can they hurt you?

The issue is that sure, you can sue for libel or defamation, but you'd have to prove that it was untrue, and to do that you'd need to know what's being said. Further, your employer, colleagues, associates, spouse might be completely aware of the claims and act on those claims without any further evidence. So you're fired, lose your seat on the PTA, are barred from the golf club, or whatever. While you might have some form of legal redress, it's not guaranteed, nor is it entirely repairable. Suppose your spouse files for divorce based on social media claims you had several sexual affairs with minors, or sexually harassed former employees, how you going to fix that, even if you stop the divorce, your marriage is going to be entirely different afterwards.

That's the issue, it's not the injury of the postings, it's the effects that follow from those postings that often are nothing more than one person making uncorroborated claims, and hundreds dogpiling onto those claims and inflaming the situation.
Yes, exactly. It's just like yelling "FIRE!" in a theater when there isn't one and you start a riot and people get hurt trying to get out you end up being liable. Zoe knew this guy had some mental problems but was getting help yet still posted it. Keep in mind, she's one of those that goes by "xer" so that's all you need to know about this *****. She's also scammed people out of money.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2019, 01:52 PM
 
4,588 posts, read 8,350,711 times
Reputation: 1735
Public employees like teachers AFAIK aren't under the same rules as private enterprise, and people can and have filed wrongful termination IF they get evidence that such has happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunner View Post
LOL. welcome to "right to work" laws...……….
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2019, 05:31 PM
 
5,501 posts, read 1,095,854 times
Reputation: 2193
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Twitter mobs are horrible.

Abusers are horrible too.

You can argue that mobs are bad without defending abusers.
Another thing is that those Twitter mobs may not exactly have all the facts on the claims against the suspect and they still go wild!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-16-2019, 06:23 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
67,583 posts, read 34,482,133 times
Reputation: 14556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicman View Post
Around last week, Zoe Quinn, a feminist activist, accused Alec Howolka, a video game developer, of being emotionally and physically abusive in a Twitter post.

EDIT:
* Original post: zoλ
* Thread: zoλ

I believe she said it was due to a mental illness, and that he had already apologized and come to an understanding privately, but she decided to make the post public anyway. She has thousands of followers, and the media latched onto it. Zoe Quinn had never contacted law enforcement about it, and did not do so. She did not take any legal remedies. Zoe Quinn did not speak up about this until now. Zoe claimed that she thought Howolka changed, but he did not zoλ

Some other posts I found:
* U
* zoλ

Howolka's former coworkers then made a Twitter post stating they were cutting ties with him

Howolka then committed suicide, something announced by his sister. Eileen Mary Holowka on Twitter: "Alec Holowka, my brother and best friend, passed away this morning. This became a PR crisis as the suicide came just days after the public announcement.

One of the former business partners, Scott Benson, made a post on medium.com saying that Alec was abusive towards him, though because of his mental illness (this detail sandwiched in there), calling himself a "survivor", and arguing that it was understandable that he died. I believe he said there were other women saying Alec abused them https://medium.com/@bombsfall/alec-2618dc1e23e

None of those people went to the police or law enforcement. Unlike people like Weinstein, Cosby, Spacey, etc. Howolka lacked the financial wealth and power that would insulate himself, so Quinn should not have feared going to the police IMO. If anything she has the said power.

I understand that people are strongly against sexual, physical, and emotional abuse and want to protect society and women in particular. At the same time, unproven allegations can very quickly destroy a professional career and family connections. I think there needs to be action taken to prevent Twitter mobs and to encourage any accusers to go to the police or law enforcement in a timely matter; they may not believe you, or criticize you, and it may take a long time, but it's something you must endure to get justice. I also harshly criticize people saying that it's not the accusers' fault that an (alleged) abuser committed suicide, or that you cannot drive someone to suicide; you absolutely can if their professional and familial connections are taken away. Some of the pro-Quinn people say it's offensive to ask for proof; I say that it's an inappropriate attitude and not a reasonable objection.

I am also extremely disappointed in the mainstream (Western) media for not airing much about this dilemma; only RT of Russia had an op-ed warning against Twitter mobs. Some op-eds in western pubs, like the one by Laurie Penny, conclude that Holowka is definitely an abuser (despite lack of a law enforcement investigation or lawsuit) https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/1168625632793808899 and https://www.wired.com/story/videogam...ale-fragility/ . This is a dangerous attitude as people can be, and have been, falsely accused.

I know City-Data is made of older adults who are not connected to gaming culture. It's important for us - and I'm a self-identified progressive Millennial liberal from a big city - to make it uncomfortable for people condoning mob shaming. I feel Zoe Quinn, Scott Benson, and Laurie Penny et al are making it dangerous in society.
Mother Nature has a cruel way of culling the weak from the herd of sheepe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 03:46 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,527 posts, read 4,290,810 times
Reputation: 4987
The interesting part of this whole event is it's the flipside of GamerGate (which was primarily directed at Zoe Quinn).

GamerGate really started rolling with posts by Eron Gjoni, at the time a former boyfriend of Quinns who posted a whole panorama of alleged abusive behaviors Quinn enacted against him, and allegations of cheating and sexual favors for good reviews for her game Depression Quest.

This was picked up and dogpiled on by many people, most with an axe to grind in general, but some in particular. Obviously this had serious impact on Quinn. The results are still there to read.

Clearly being the recipient of such venom over unsubstantiated claims taught Quinn nothing. However it's interesting to note the dichotomy of "measured" media responses. In GG measured responses stated no evidence was provided by Gjoni, that they were just claims and if it were significant he could file charges. In this instance those same measured media responses were lighting the fires and collecting the pitchforks.

It shows a horrific double standard in how we respond to claims of abuse. When it's a woman claiming abuse, the burden is on the accused, when a man claims abuse the burden is on the accuser. Historically women have had problems getting traction misreporting abuse, that's just a fact, men have an issue getting traction reporting abuse. However we don't fix the historical problem by basing reaction to claims on solely a claim.

The injustices of the past will not be corrected by flipping the burden of proof so that men are presumed guilty. The victims of abuse who cried for help and were ignored or invalidated won't receive justice by doing that. Every claim of abuse and harassment needs equal treatment. Certainly IPV (intimate partner violence) tracks to gender symmetry, while it may be argued that men committing violence against women can cause more physical harm, it's also true that women committing violence against men may ultimately suffer physical harm if there is no real method men can use to report and prevent violence being committed against them.

In harassment cases, again while it appears to be a male majority committing offenses, that neither excuses female minority commission of offenses, nor is true in cases of women dominant organizations, which are themselves a minority, but in those organizations the harassment is also flipped such that men are more likely to be the recipients of harassment.

Ultimately people are people, they deserve the same level of respect in both reporting abuse and harassment, and in determining whether or not claims they are a harasser or abuser are true. The genders of the alleged and alleger should be irrelevant to the determination.
__________________
My mod posts will always be in red.
The Rules • Infractions & Deletions • Who's the moderator? • FAQ • What is a "Personal Attack" • What is "Trolling" • Guidelines for copyrighted material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top