The suicide of Alec Holowka and Twitter witch hunt mobs (attorney, Canada)

[texan2yankee]

I don't know enough to comment specifically on the tragedy in original post.

while emotional well being can be severely affected by vicious social media attacks, I don't think social media can be blamed when people choose to take their own life.

also, based on my reading over the last few years, most anonymous twitter participants are mentally unbalanced cowards. twitter is a sewer filled with the lowest ranking specimens of humanity.

[NigerianNightmare]

While he suicide is a tragedy and no one should take their life. It is unknown if he did or didn’t do the said acts and so if he’s guilty and committed suicide or if he’s innocent and committed suicide. I don’t know how theirs a case to even bring against the accuser. Because if it can never be found out if he was innocent or not or at least it’s harder if one of the people involved is deceased, it’s not like she committed a crime in coming out.

Since most people are taking the side of assuming he was innocent, I’ll play devils advocate. What if he was guilty? He killed himself but what does that do to the situation he got outed and fired. But people get fired all the time and kill themselves, does that mean the family can sue his company for firing him or the woman for trying to out him. Either way if he was innocent and his life was ruined suicide still doesn’t get him anywhere and only hurts his family members.

[Checkmarkblue]

Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare

While he suicide is a tragedy and no one should take their life. It is unknown if he did or didn’t do the said acts and so if he’s guilty and committed suicide or if he’s innocent and committed suicide. I don’t know how theirs a case to even bring against the accuser. Because if it can never be found out if he was innocent or not or at least it’s harder if one of the people involved is deceased, it’s not like she committed a crime in coming out.

Since most people are taking the side of assuming he was innocent, I’ll play devils advocate. What if he was guilty? He killed himself but what does that do to the situation he got outed and fired. But people get fired all the time and kill themselves, does that mean the family can sue his company for firing him or the woman for trying to out him. Either way if he was innocent and his life was ruined suicide still doesn’t get him anywhere and only hurts his family members.

His sister believes that he victimesed Zoë Quinn.

[Ringo1]

Never heard of it. Deleted twitter from my phone a very long time ago. Highly recommend.

[Vicman]

The social media post wasnt the sole factor but started felling dominoes.. media companies started contacting Holowka asking for comments and the former developers announced they severed ties in a span of two days. All that would wreck a mentally ill man

Originally Posted by texan2yankee

I don't know enough to comment specifically on the tragedy in original post.

while emotional well being can be severely affected by vicious social media attacks, I don't think social media can be blamed when people choose to take their own life.

also, based on my reading over the last few years, most anonymous twitter participants are mentally unbalanced cowards. twitter is a sewer filled with the lowest ranking specimens of humanity.

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Never heard of it. Deleted twitter from my phone a very long time ago. Highly recommend.

One problem though is that if the accusations are about somebody, employers and business partners can learn about it from Twitter and that affects someone's life. Also Howolka had a very technologically oriented career in video game design do it's hard for him to ignore Twitter.

Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare

While he suicide is a tragedy and no one should take their life. It is unknown if he did or didn’t do the said acts and so if he’s guilty and committed suicide or if he’s innocent and committed suicide. I don’t know how theirs a case to even bring against the accuser. Because if it can never be found out if he was innocent or not or at least it’s harder if one of the people involved is deceased, it’s not like she committed a crime in coming out.

Since most people are taking the side of assuming he was innocent, I’ll play devils advocate. What if he was guilty? He killed himself but what does that do to the situation he got outed and fired. But people get fired all the time and kill themselves, does that mean the family can sue his company for firing him or the woman for trying to out him. Either way if he was innocent and his life was ruined suicide still doesn’t get him anywhere and only hurts his family members.

The man had a history of mental illness (including anger, depression and abandonment issues), something Quinn and Benson knew. All those events happening st once is hard on a mental state. It's not like it's a calm afternoon at the beach where you can think it over.

Its ironic that NITW was a game about a mentally ill girl with a message if understanding, and Quinn formed the anti harrassment Crash Override Network, yet Holowka was a mentally ill man who died after mob harrassment online.

Holowka's estate may be able to sue for defamation but not sure if Canada has a criminal libel law. Realistically I think even a civil case against Quinn or Benson would be tough.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by Ringo1

Never heard of it. Deleted twitter from my phone a very long time ago. Highly recommend.

^^^Wise advice right there.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by Vicman

Legal status is a good barometer because the question is "did he do it?" A mob seeing allegations of abuse eont stop to ponder and weigh the evidence while a court will.

As for cases that dont go to court, it is true that people get away with crimes or bad behavior, but it is more important to protect innocent people from false or mischaracterizes accusations than to pursue people for bad acts that are unproven

Also I do think the other parties failed to get proper help; if someone threatens suicide you call the authorities regardless of whether it's a cynical ploy or a genuine cry for help. Unpleasant anti suicide mechanisms will get the cynical folks to stop. I'm sure its exhausting bring around a mentally I'll person, but cutting ties privately is a better choice than sticking a mob.

Legal status is not a good barometer. I already stated why, but if you need another example, look at Casey Anthony.

As for the bold, that argument doesnt work here, you arent claiming you believe he is innocent.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by dsjj251

Twitter mobs are horrible.

Abusers are horrible too.

You can argue that mobs are bad without defending abusers.

Good post.

The big risk there is that when the accuser is someone mentally unstable like "mattress girl" or just a bitter ex. the pitchfork mob is already unleashed at that point.

[Vicman]

Precisely my point - a mob won't have the sense to determine whether the accuser is like that before acting.

Originally Posted by Mathguy

Good post.

The big risk there is that when the accuser is someone mentally unstable like "mattress girl" or just a bitter ex. the pitchfork mob is already unleashed at that point.

There's a question of innocent of what:

• Suicide threats, anger, and paranoia: "Guilty" due to mental illness, which it's not fair to demonize him for (Quinn and Benson acknowledged it was due to mental illness)
• Locking Quinn in an apartment shared with multiple other people (who did not intervene, apparently?) and doing something she didn't like during sex; not sure (I doubt it). Quinn made other allegations about various other ex boyfriends, denied by them. I do not believe she ever tried the legal system. She says she has no power, but had audiences with the UN and has a highly followed Twitter account. She actually has power.

Re; Anthony, she was accused of willful misconduct. She probably is guilty in my opinion and isn't entitled to a job, but you can't threaten her, can't harrass her, can't beat her up, right? She had a trial, but Holowka never had and died from suicide. There are people cleared in criminal cases that are still viewed suspiciously as they "got away with it" such as the kids in San Diego. Are we to condone their harrassment too just because the legal system is rejected as a barometer>

I insist that "Legal status is not a good barometer" is, while well-intentioned, ultimately not good and should be discarded because society can't handle it anymore. It's one thing to privately think someone might be guilty, as you do, and as a private individual on your own, reject a friend invite or deny somebody a job. But I feel the attitude of "eh he never went to court but he's guilty anyway" will lead to harrassment, destruction of careers, and criminal behavior. The mob can pressure others to do things they don't want to do (reject qualified people for jobs etc). The public cannot be trusted to be rational on that count, so we must use the legal system as the barometer on mass social media. The court of public opinion should be dismantled and Twitter mobs should be "documented" and banned from the service to teach people not to do that.

Originally Posted by dsjj251

Legal status is not a good barometer. I already stated why, but if you need another example, look at Casey Anthony.

As for the bold, that argument doesnt work here, you arent claiming you believe he is innocent.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by Vicman

Precisely my point - a mob won't have the sense to determine whether the accuser is like that before acting.



There's a question of innocent of what:

• Suicide threats, anger, and paranoia: "Guilty" due to mental illness, which it's not fair to demonize him for (Quinn and Benson acknowledged it was due to mental illness)
• Locking Quinn in an apartment shared with multiple other people (who did not intervene, apparently?) and doing something she didn't like during sex; not sure (I doubt it). Quinn made other allegations about various other ex boyfriends, denied by them. I do not believe she ever tried the legal system. She says she has no power, but had audiences with the UN and has a highly followed Twitter account. She actually has power.

Re; Anthony, she was accused of willful misconduct. She probably is guilty in my opinion and isn't entitled to a job, but you can't threaten her, can't harrass her, can't beat her up, right? She had a trial, but Holowka never had and died from suicide. There are people cleared in criminal cases that are still viewed suspiciously as they "got away with it" such as the kids in San Diego. Are we to condone their harrassment too just because the legal system is rejected as a barometer>

I insist that "Legal status is not a good barometer" is, while well-intentioned, ultimately not good and should be discarded because society can't handle it anymore. It's one thing to privately think someone might be guilty, as you do, and as a private individual on your own, reject a friend invite or deny somebody a job. But I feel the attitude of "eh he never went to court but he's guilty anyway" will lead to harrassment, destruction of careers, and criminal behavior. The mob can pressure others to do things they don't want to do (reject qualified people for jobs etc). The public cannot be trusted to be rational on that count, so we must use the legal system as the barometer on mass social media. The court of public opinion should be dismantled and Twitter mobs should be "documented" and banned from the service to teach people not to do that.

1. I dont condone harassment, my argument is that your belief is flawed.

2. As your own example shows, going to court doesnt stop the harassment that you claim caused this mans death.

In short, I dont think going to court changes the outcome here. So this isnt about the public being rational, because in both scenarios, the public finds out and does the same thing.


Your post started out as beliveing he was guilty, but not deserving of the treatment he got, but like I said, that would have happened no matter what.

However, you have no shifted to , "her story doesnt add up, he may be innocent of some of what she said" which you could have just stated from the beginning if that is what you believed.