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Old Today, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Metro Seattle Area - Born and Raised
780 posts, read 311,270 times
Reputation: 1886

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Quote:
Originally Posted by crone View Post
So in order to protect our 2nd amendment rights, you would;d trash the 1st. Got it.
Seriously, we Americans are basically pretty freaking stupid... As a collective.

In order to change the United States Constitution, 2/3rds of the States would have to agree with doing so, which isn't going to happen... Period. Just like we're never going to get rid of the Electoral College.

Second, the Second Amendment protects the First, Fourth, Fifth and so on Amendments, as they, in return, protect the Second. Seriuosly, our framing fathers were pretty wise to come up with such a document that protects everybody's basic rights. Today!! Simply based on an emotional response, half of America wants to start changing the Constitution... Based on emotions.

Once that starts, it's over.... not for just gun owners, but for the media and our rights to assemble in public and protest or protect us from unreasonable searches... If we are willing to go this far let's also change it to now you're guilty UNTIL you prove yourself innocent to the government/courts. How stupid and unAmerican is that?

Please tell me we're not that stupid!! I love my country and all my people AND want to have hope in us again.

For a moment, let's say that the Second Amendment was done away with and in the name of Public Safety, the government was now allowed to enter every home at anytime, WITHOUT a warrant, to look for all firearms, both big and small. How would you feel about that?

If you're OK with that fine, but let's say that during these searches, government officers find something like non prescribed legal/illegal drugs, your tax records, media that could be viewed as showing you as a sexual deviant, personal writings or anything that's critical of the government? And these items were seized as evidence against you and your family since they're contraband items, but no guns were found? Would that be OK?

What if YOU were immediately placed under arrest since now YOU are automatically guilty? Would that also be OK since it was done in the name of Public Safety?

If that's not OK, are we now allowed to pick and choice what laws to follow? Or now Public Safety isn't really that important to non gun owners since this new law would effect them as well?

I know that this doesn't help our current situation since it's not based on an emotional response, but WE, the entire country have plenty of laws currently on the books covering everything about guns and the illegal/criminal usage of them. Being a retired law enforcement officer, I've seen for myself that the first charge AND this is no bull sheet, the first charge dropped by our criminal courts are the firearms/weapons violation(s). So here is an ideal. Why don't the courts hold people fully responsible for their criminal usage of firearms and do not allow them to plea out of these firearms violations? Again, we are talking about criminals... Who are, without doubt, criminals and deal with them in our justic system instead of trying to make half of the American people criminals. Personally, if our justice system was working, violent criminals wouldnt be laughing after getting out of prison in two years after being given twenty years in prisons.

Our justice system is broken, which allows criminals to have more rights than the average citizen. Case and point. The State of California just dropped all charges against a criminal illegal alien with several felony convictions and deportations, who shot and killed a law biding person. The only reason why Kate Steinie's family will get any justice is that now the federal government stepped in and will charge him in federal courts since the State Courts in California failed this family... In the name of political correctness.

Not only is our justice system failing us and our entire country, but we are also facing a mental health crisis were individuals with mental issues, violent issues are not receiving the help they need. Often and normally the case, they are free to remain in this state since the courts will not command them into receiving treatment, to include confinement to ensure that they receive treatment that might help them to become functioning citizens again.

If you seriously think that striking down the Second Amendment is the answer to all of America's problems, you're most likely a very short sighted person, who will often make poor decisions based on how you are feeling at that moment in time and not seeing all the possible long term negative affects that decision might have.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but I know that this problem in America isn't going to be solved by banning gun ownership... That's too easy and we will still have plenty of mass killings since the real problems were not dealt with.
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Old Today, 01:41 PM
 
Location: SDL/PDX/RDU
4,883 posts, read 2,628,008 times
Reputation: 5673
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
That would constitute a tax on exercising a constitutional right and would essentially bar lower income citizens from owning a firearm.

You don't have a constitutional right to drive a car.
Save it. Free speech is a constitutional right but yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater will drop a whole bunch of legal action in your lap.

I'd also like to see an example where financial means shows up in the Constitution.
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Old Today, 01:41 PM
 
16,712 posts, read 4,389,174 times
Reputation: 11656
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
That would constitute a tax on exercising a constitutional right and would essentially bar lower income citizens from owning a firearm.

You don't have a constitutional right to drive a car.
Do you have a constitutional right to vote without it costing you some money? Transport to the polls?

Is your claim that the stuff mentioned in the Constitution:

Post Office, Post Roads
Patents and Trademarks
Navigation
and dozens of other such items MUST all be free?

Let me answer. Of course you aren't saying that since you know it not to be true.

Let me do a short scan on the Constitution:

Let's start at the very beginning. We can all be Representatives of the People.
It costs VAST amounts of money to get into office and stay in.
Is that unconstitutional?

Wow, look at Section 8! Literally thousands of possible "Constitution duties and rights and declarations" ALL FUNDED.

Please - I have spent 10's of thousands on getting and keeping patents and trademarks. Can you send me the retund since this is obviously unconstitutional?

The 2nd has already been complete misread (you can read that too).....bad enough. But now saying that it all has to be free to the users....and all the effects have to be free......????

Even in the Bill of Rights - so, I don't have to insure my House of Worship and if it burns down or create excess traffic the Government has to spread the cost to others...not involved?

The same with my Media - can't cost me a dime to practice Free Speech???

Amazing....now they all want welfare for their material possessions!

We already have Citizens United which declares - straight out - that our Free Speech can be purchased in quantity by Billionaires for ANY purpose. This is a Republican case.....
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Old Today, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
7,036 posts, read 3,486,835 times
Reputation: 3001
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
That would constitute a tax on exercising a constitutional right and would essentially bar lower income citizens from owning a firearm.

You don't have a constitutional right to drive a car.
I'd allow one gun per household to be exempt from insurance & registration fees. Now your right to bear arms has not been infringed and you're free to exercise that Constitutional right.

And as long as that primary gun has the exemption allowing you to exercise your 2nd amendment right, each additional gun is free to be taxed.
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Old Today, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
7,036 posts, read 3,486,835 times
Reputation: 3001
Quote:
Originally Posted by bergun View Post
Seriously, we Americans are basically pretty freaking stupid... As a collective.

In order to change the United States Constitution, 2/3rds of the States would have to agree with doing so, which isn't going to happen... Period. Just like we're never going to get rid of the Electoral College.

Second, the Second Amendment protects the First, Fourth, Fifth and so on Amendments, as they, in return, protect the Second. Seriuosly, our framing fathers were pretty wise to come up with such a document that protects everybody's basic rights. Today!! Simply based on an emotional response, half of America wants to start changing the Constitution... Based on emotions.

Once that starts, it's over.... not for just gun owners, but for the media and our rights to assemble in public and protest or protect us from unreasonable searches... If we are willing to go this far let's also change it to now you're guilty UNTIL you prove yourself innocent to the government/courts. How stupid and unAmerican is that?

Please tell me we're not that stupid!! I love my country and all my people AND want to have hope in us again.

For a moment, let's say that the Second Amendment was done away with and in the name of Public Safety, the government was now allowed to enter every home at anytime, WITHOUT a warrant, to look for all firearms, both big and small. How would you feel about that?

If you're OK with that fine, but let's say that during these searches, government officers find something like non prescribed legal/illegal drugs, your tax records, media that could be viewed as showing you as a sexual deviant, personal writings or anything that's critical of the government? And these items were seized as evidence against you and your family since they're contraband items, but no guns were found? Would that be OK?

What if YOU were immediately placed under arrest since now YOU are automatically guilty? Would that also be OK since it was done in the name of Public Safety?

If that's not OK, are we now allowed to pick and choice what laws to follow? Or now Public Safety isn't really that important to non gun owners since this new law would effect them as well?

I know that this doesn't help our current situation since it's not based on an emotional response, but WE, the entire country have plenty of laws currently on the books covering everything about guns and the illegal/criminal usage of them. Being a retired law enforcement officer, I've seen for myself that the first charge AND this is no bull sheet, the first charge dropped by our criminal courts are the firearms/weapons violation(s). So here is an ideal. Why don't the courts hold people fully responsible for their criminal usage of firearms and do not allow them to plea out of these firearms violations? Again, we are talking about criminals... Who are, without doubt, criminals and deal with them in our justic system instead of trying to make half of the American people criminals. Personally, if our justice system was working, violent criminals wouldnt be laughing after getting out of prison in two years after being given twenty years in prisons.

Our justice system is broken, which allows criminals to have more rights than the average citizen. Case and point. The State of California just dropped all charges against a criminal illegal alien with several felony convictions and deportations, who shot and killed a law biding person. The only reason why Kate Steinie's family will get any justice is that now the federal government stepped in and will charge him in federal courts since the State Courts in California failed this family... In the name of political correctness.

Not only is our justice system failing us and our entire country, but we are also facing a mental health crisis were individuals with mental issues, violent issues are not receiving the help they need. Often and normally the case, they are free to remain in this state since the courts will not command them into receiving treatment, to include confinement to ensure that they receive treatment that might help them to become functioning citizens again.

If you seriously think that striking down the Second Amendment is the answer to all of America's problems, you're most likely a very short sighted person, who will often make poor decisions based on how you are feeling at that moment in time and not seeing all the possible long term negative affects that decision might have.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but I know that this problem in America isn't going to be solved by banning gun ownership... That's too easy and we will still have plenty of mass killings since the real problems were not dealt with.
Why would banning guns lead to a Gestapo govt breaking down doors to get them? Drugs are illegal. Why isn't the govt knocking down every door to randomly search if Americans have some hidden somewhere?
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Old Today, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
10,183 posts, read 5,637,075 times
Reputation: 8548
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
I'd allow one gun per household to be exempt from insurance & registration fees. Now your right to bear arms has not been infringed and you're free to exercise that Constitutional right.

And as long as that primary gun has the exemption allowing you to exercise your 2nd amendment right, each additional gun is free to be taxed.
But it has.

Once you allow the government to regulate a right, it is really no longer a right.

Further, as the government has demonstrated, they can always change their mind, such as with social security, find a way to change their mind, such as when they closed the machine gun registry.

Finally, note that the 2nd amendment says arms. Plural, not singular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
Why would banning guns least to a Gestapo govt breaking down doors to get them? Drugs are illegal. Why isn't the govt knocking down every door to randomly search if Americans have it hidden somewhere?
Have you seen any of the videos from the New Orleans flood?

As to drugs, it is probably not in the government's interest to do a door to door break down looking for drugs. Probably unwise, further, to trust that your interests and the government's interests will always be the same. Just look at what Biden said when asked about why they weren't prosecuting people who tried to buy a gun and were turned away at the check.

Last edited by TamaraSavannah; Today at 02:11 PM..
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Old Today, 02:02 PM
 
Location: SDL/PDX/RDU
4,883 posts, read 2,628,008 times
Reputation: 5673
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB.Good View Post
I'd allow one gun per household to be exempt from insurance & registration fees. Now your right to bear arms has not been infringed and you're free to exercise that Constitutional right.

And as long as that primary gun has the exemption allowing you to exercise your 2nd amendment right, each additional gun is free to be taxed.
That's not the worst idea I've ever heard, Eddie. Excellent creative thinking
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Old Today, 02:06 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,840 posts, read 5,524,493 times
Reputation: 10792
In the middle of each and every city install a big red button connected to a nuke. A sign... go head, I dare you.

It only takes one idiot to press the button.

(yes... and it only takes one idiot with a weapon or any size/type)
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Old Today, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
7,036 posts, read 3,486,835 times
Reputation: 3001
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
But it has.

Once you allow the government to regulate a right, it is really no longer a right.

Further, as the government has demonstrated, they can always change their mind, such as with social security, find a way to change their mind, such as when they closed the machine gun registry.

Finally, note that the 2nd amendment says arms. Plural, not singular.





Have you seen any of the videos from the New Orleans flood?


As to drugs, it is probably not in the government's interest to do a door to door break down looking for drugs. Probably unwise, further, to trust that your interests and the government's interests will always be the same. Just look at what Biden said when asked about why they weren't prosecuting people who tried to buy a gun and were turned away at the check.
Should prisoners be allowed to own guns in jail? That answers how literally we need to take the wording of the 2nd amendment.

The point I'm making about door-busting cops is that something being illegal leading to govt violating your rights isn't a argument that's supported by history. If guns were illegal, no one would be doing door to door searches. They'd say "Your gun is illegal. This is the penalty for not turning it in."
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Old Today, 02:13 PM
 
Location: SM
25,860 posts, read 9,985,549 times
Reputation: 9968
Quote:
If You Were In Charge What Would You Do Regarding Guns?
I'd see a shrink for my whopping case of megalomania and then see if I could go on disability for being a sociopath.
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