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Old Yesterday, 08:40 AM
 
878 posts, read 418,130 times
Reputation: 2769

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisruff View Post
I thought that was what this upcoming crash was going to fix.

inflate the market bubble
let the 'central banks' shed dollars and horde gold
pop the bubble
pretend to panic
reset the dollar to 0.10 cents
pay off the debt with the trillion dollar T coins
everybody worldwide gets the same haircut
start all over again

I am pretty sure that is what everybody was talking about at the Build-A-Burger meeting last week, wasn't it?
Under MMT, the national debts are never paid off. Additional debt is emitted in whatever quantity needed to fund annual budget deficits and service interest on the debt. A thinking person might ask why governments still expect individuals and companies to pay taxes, after all we could just fund everything with more debt. The answer to that question was provided by none other than Nobel laureate Paul Krugman. We pay our taxes only because it informs us plebes and we know which currency to use.
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Old Yesterday, 09:00 AM
 
67,222 posts, read 30,858,193 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
Rightwing logic....

Republicans - Communism.

There is no middle ground... Reagan would be called a socialist by todays Republican Party standards!!!

While over here in Scandinavia we are paying 30-40% in income tax, 12-25% VAT one goods and services.
And we have some of the best safety net in the world, with lots and lots and lots of workers rights.

While being a highly capitalistic countries, and in most cases being more capitalistic and business friendly then the US.

People have forgotten that the USA used to have institutions that were very similar to the ones we have in the Nordic countries, as recently as in the 1970s. Trade union membership was as high as 40 per cent in many sectors. This period saw an expansion of the American welfare state, which then came to a halt. The result was increased wage disparities and greater inequality.
Post a poll to see how many Americans would be willing to pay a 30%-40% federal income tax PLUS a 12%-25% VAT on top of that to fund what they "say" they want. The problem with the vast majority of Americans wanting such safety net programs and workers rights is that they DON'T want to PAY what it takes to fund them. That's why it will never happen.
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Old Yesterday, 09:26 AM
 
1,216 posts, read 230,263 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Post a poll to see how many Americans would be willing to pay a 30%-40% federal income tax PLUS a 12%-25% VAT on top of that to fund what they "say" they want. The problem with the vast majority of Americans wanting such safety net programs and workers rights is that they DON'T want to PAY what it takes to fund them. That's why it will never happen.
Just so we are clear.. the 30-40% taxes are ALL taxes. (except property taxes)
Not sure if you are thinking 30-40% Federal, then adding state, municipal, school etc etc?


That is what it would cost to fund one of the best safety nets in the world..

Covering:
Healthcare for life
Subsidized childcare
"Free" Public schools and university.
Unemployment benefits with 66% of pay until you find a new job
$30-45.000 a year if you are disabled or can't work anymore
Public pension
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Old Yesterday, 09:40 AM
 
2,717 posts, read 911,901 times
Reputation: 1900
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecrowds View Post
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...ojections.html

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres...ojections.html

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cha.asp


78 million Americans in 2030 will Medicare aged, OASDI, government pensions

76.7 million children a vast majority in public schools and some Democrats want free child care for birth to 5 years old.

13.7 million in public colleges which Bernie Sanders want to make free
So what do you want to do, eliminate Medicare or do away with public schools? The 78 million will be on Medicare and govt pensions, regardless. Those are entitlements that have already been guaranteed. And the 77 million will be in public school regardless. We have had free K-12 for years. The only addition here is the free college. I think it's a good idea but I honestly don't see it happening anytime soon.
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Old Yesterday, 09:48 AM
 
2,717 posts, read 911,901 times
Reputation: 1900
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Post a poll to see how many Americans would be willing to pay a 30%-40% federal income tax PLUS a 12%-25% VAT on top of that to fund what they "say" they want. The problem with the vast majority of Americans wanting such safety net programs and workers rights is that they DON'T want to PAY what it takes to fund them. That's why it will never happen.
The government already takes a third of my check. So it would just be that extra VAT. In return, no medical premiums or copays, no disability insurance and no college tuition. Might be a good deal.
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Old Yesterday, 09:54 AM
 
67,222 posts, read 30,858,193 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
Just so we are clear.. the 30-40% taxes are ALL taxes. (except property taxes)
No, that's NOT what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
Rightwing logic....

Republicans - Communism.

There is no middle ground... Reagan would be called a socialist by todays Republican Party standards!!!

While over here in Scandinavia we are paying 30-40% in income tax, 12-25% VAT one goods and services.
And we have some of the best safety net in the world, with lots and lots and lots of workers rights.

While being a highly capitalistic countries, and in most cases being more capitalistic and business friendly then the US.

People have forgotten that the USA used to have institutions that were very similar to the ones we have in the Nordic countries, as recently as in the 1970s. Trade union membership was as high as 40 per cent in many sectors. This period saw an expansion of the American welfare state, which then came to a halt. The result was increased wage disparities and greater inequality.
INCOME tax. That's what you said.

In direct contrast, the US middle class pays no more than a 10% state income tax (most states are significantly less, my state income tax rate is 5.499%) and an average 7% effective federal income tax rate. Combined, that's less than half the income tax rate Europeans pay. I'm telling you... There's NO way the US middle class will pay a 30%-40% total state and federal income tax rate PLUS a 12%-25% national sales tax to get national health care, etc. That's the nature of many in the US... They WANT those things, but want SOMEONE ELSE to PAY for them. That's why it'll NEVER happen.
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Old Yesterday, 09:57 AM
 
67,222 posts, read 30,858,193 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo58 View Post
The government already takes a third of my check. So it would just be that extra VAT. In return, no medical premiums or copays, no disability insurance and no college tuition. Might be a good deal.
Convince everyone else to pay a 20%-25% VAT, and you have a better chance of getting what you and many of them say they want.


My prediction? Most will WANT the freebie government-provided goodies, but WON'T want to PAY for them. That's why it'll never happen.
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Old Yesterday, 10:20 AM
 
1,216 posts, read 230,263 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No, that's NOT what you said:
INCOME tax. That's what you said.

In direct contrast, the US middle class pays no more than a 10% state income tax (most states are significantly less, my state income tax rate is 5.499%) and an average 7% effective federal income tax rate. Combined, that's less than half the income tax rate Europeans pay. I'm telling you... There's NO way the US middle class will pay a 30%-40% total state and federal income tax rate PLUS a 12%-25% national sales tax to get national health care, etc. That's the nature of many in the US... They WANT those things, but want SOMEONE ELSE to PAY for them. That's why it'll NEVER happen.

I pay 30-40% total in taxes.. those are then split between Federal, State, Municipal, Healthcare etc etc...

That then covers everything I listed.

Of those 30-40%, x% are sent to federal, x% to state, x% t o Municipal etc..


Just checked:
11.5% to state and municipal
6.7% to Federal
8.2% to Social sec


Food has 15% VAT
Most other items has 25% VAT
News papers, books, medical services are excluded from VAT
23% of all taxes are collected via VAT.
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Old Yesterday, 10:44 AM
 
67,222 posts, read 30,858,193 times
Reputation: 8828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
I pay 30-40% total in taxes.. those are then split between Federal, State, Municipal, Healthcare etc etc...
I doubt it. Here's a comparison...

EU-28 comparative chart on page 9. Effective national tax rate in the 2nd column from the right:

http://www.institutmolinari.org/IMG/...en-eu-2017.pdf

Again... Most Americans WON'T pay that much in national taxes to get similar national government-provided social program services/benefits. Americans want SOMEONE ELSE to pay. It'll never happen.
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Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
 
118 posts, read 21,668 times
Reputation: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
The combined net worth of the 2017 class of the 400 richest Americans was $2.7 trillion, up from $2.4 trillion in the previous year. As of March 2018, the U.S. had 585 billionaires.

Banana republics cannot stand without some sort of repressive apparatus. USA is unique in a sense that brainwashing over weighed centralized repression, but as inequality mushrooms that must change.
I never like stats that use undefined terms like the, "the richest". But even so, if you take your number of $2.7 trillion and stole every penny of these "richest" Americans wealth, you still couldn't operate the government a year off it. Stealing money due to jealousy isn't the way to save the nation.


I am no constitutional scholar, but I have read it. I didn't see anything requiring the wealthy to pay the way of the poor. Charity is one thing, but confiscation through taxation is a completely different animal entirely. It only appeals to the people who have nothing to steal.
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