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Old 09-09-2019, 06:47 AM
 
9,073 posts, read 4,942,743 times
Reputation: 2083

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I was against it but for it now.

My reasoning is such minimum wage raise is inevitable. Are we going to put that cost on employers or the Government is the question.

UBI raises the minimum wage with the Government paying the cost.

I mean if we could have a 20 to 30 percent VAT Tax

A flat 5% or lower tax to cover healthcare and social security or a flat 10% income tax exempting $10,000 income yearly.

A flat 10% business tax.

Then with UBI do away with tax returns. Those who pay income tax are eligible for UBI if not on Federal SSI.

With UBI would we cap it at a certain income. If so would we return 30 to 50 percent of income tax collected to the individual not receiving UBI yearly.

Also say UBI caps at $200,000. So every $50,000 monthly payments raise by $1,000.

Would it be for Head of Household, joint incomes, or each adult individually.

Off topic. I am okay with universal healthcare. I be okay if it's a voluntary option. Individual individuals can use it in conjunction with private insurance as well as HSA.

Can opt out of it when you file taxes. With universal healthcare 90% reimbursement for taxpayers and 70% reimbursement for non tax payers. Flat transparent health related cost of services.

Last edited by RunD1987; 09-09-2019 at 07:07 AM..
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA (Sandy Springs)
6,151 posts, read 3,095,042 times
Reputation: 4503
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeale View Post
Since jobs are available, this is a terrible idea. With automation, we may have to investigate again at a later date but we are not there yet.
Trump won because millions of manufacturing jobs in the Midwest were already lost to automation and companies moving to other countries. This problem has already started, itís not something thatís still far off.

More jobs are going away every year, Amazon is killing a lot of retail etc.

Yes the unemployment numbers are low but clearly a lot of people are underemployed as well.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:05 AM
 
31,162 posts, read 17,027,637 times
Reputation: 14405
Quote:
Originally Posted by atltechdude View Post
Trump won because millions of manufacturing jobs in the Midwest were already lost to automation and companies moving to other countries. This problem has already started, itís not something thatís still far off.

More jobs are going away every year, Amazon is killing a lot of retail etc.

Yes the unemployment numbers are low but clearly a lot of people are underemployed as well.
Caution: luddite at work


Amazon is successful because people voluntarily shop there. Would you punish them for that?
Disagree that cheaper goods and services are "a problem" and so do most economists.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:17 AM
 
Location: San Diego
36,520 posts, read 33,047,590 times
Reputation: 20844
Quote:
Originally Posted by FKD19124 View Post
and what free stuff is that????

My elderly father is not collecting free stuff. If you mean SS check each month? He paid into that all his life so it wasn't free.
I can think of a whole slew of stuff low income get. Free or discounted rates for utilities is a huge one.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:40 AM
 
106 posts, read 22,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
I can think of a whole slew of stuff low income get. Free or discounted rates for utilities is a huge one.
I thought it was commercial users that got the 16% discount.

My bad.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:53 AM
 
Location: San Diego
36,520 posts, read 33,047,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisruff View Post
I thought it was commercial users that got the 16% discount.

My bad.
I work for an ISP so I know how many discounts go out to low income and for many it's free. All utilities have huge discounts for low income. Our commercial rates are way higher than residential.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:18 AM
 
18,665 posts, read 10,702,251 times
Reputation: 13703
I don't understand the question given, with a deficit of over 21 Trillion dollars, it's already more than evident the American people are fine with the government giving out more than they're taking in even with the result of the last election cycle adding more to what's going out.

You're arguing over something that's already a de facto imperative etched in stone. Now all you've got left to decide is who gets bribed the next four years.
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Old 09-09-2019, 08:50 AM
 
9,344 posts, read 2,741,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
As I understand it, the most common number that people discuss when talking about UBI is $1000 a month for everyone in the country (including children?)
Children absolutely MUST be excluded. It can't work otherwise.

You get UBI to take care of you. If you want kids, you work for them.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:45 AM
 
9,073 posts, read 4,942,743 times
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What if Federal Minimum Wage was -

$5 for tip worker's and $10 for non tip worker's

Then a prebate or rebate based off reported wages to IRS:

$1,000 month for those making $50,000 or less a month

$2,000 month $50,000-$100,000

$3,000 month $100,000-$150,000

$4,000 month $150,000-$200,000

Do away with tax returns but keep a 5% income tax to fund healthcare and social security.

Last edited by RunD1987; 09-09-2019 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,555 posts, read 14,605,014 times
Reputation: 16763
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeisruff View Post
It works for me.
Well, people who don't understand it say silly stuff like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunD1987 View Post
What if Federal Minimum Wage was -
What if Napoleon had B-52G bombers at the Battle of Waterloo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
As I understand it, the most common number that people discuss when talking about UBI is $1000 a month for everyone in the country (including children?). That would replace Food Stamps which are $192 a month and most other forms of aid.
Completely false.

Food Stamps or SNAP or whatever you want to call it is currently a maximum of $562/month.

The amount of monthly benefits is dependent on one's location in the US, the number of children they have (up to 6 children -- a 7th, 8th or 9th child derives no benefits) and the type and number of benefits they receive.

For example, across the 48 contiguous States (Hawaii and Alaska are excluded by the federal government as statistical outliers) for TANF, SNAP and Medicaid it amounts to a low of $16,452 (Delaware) to as high as $22,967 (Vermont).

SNAP benefits are the same for everyone, but the amount of TANF and Medicaid depends on the State.

That's $16,452 to $22,967 plus their income.

Just so we're clear on the concept, that does not include HUD Section 8 or LIHEAP or TEFAP (which pays for their electricity and the other pays for their heat whether that heat is from electricity, natural gas, diesel oil or propane) or WIC or the free milk program or the free lunch program or the free breakfast program or Headstart or anything else.

When you add up all those things, the minimum benefit is $11,150 and the maximum is $60,590.

Plus their income (plus the Earned Income Tax Credit or EITC).

So, I ask, why would those people give up $60,590/year to get $12,000 in UBI?

Yes, those people are dumb, no doubt about it, but they're not completely stupid.

They understand the difference between mo' money and no money.

Those people will be all for UBI right up to the second they find out they will get less, at which point they'll start rioting.

And, yes, they'll start rioting. Google. US postal workers have been murdered by angry mobs in housing projects, because the welfare checks were delivered an hour later than they normally were.

One reason for the difference in benefit amounts is the Cost-of-Living, which is wildly different across the US.

Example: You're retired and get $1,200/month in Social Security benefits. I'm retired and get a Social Security benefit of $2,788/month, plus a pension of $1,878/month, for a total of $4,666/month.

I get my housing subsidized by HUD Section 8, but you cannot because you get too much money.

Wait a minute...you get $14,400/year and I get $55,992/year and I get HUD and you don't?

Yep.

Sucks to be you.

The reason I qualify for HUD and you don't is because the Cost-of-Living is far higher where I live, while for you it's very low.

So...how will UBI address differences in Cost-of-Living?

Sorry, but $1,000 in the US does not equal $1,000 everywhere in the US.

In some places in the US, $1,000 is only equal to $200 and in other places $1,000 equals $3,000 (or more).
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