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Old 09-09-2019, 01:33 PM
369 posts, read 521,812 times
Reputation: 447


Originally Posted by LiaLia View Post
"Every american" would include people who are incarcerated or in other institutions, are newborn, are minors, are millionaires, are billionaires, or live in other countries. Seems unlikely the intention is to give these people $1,000 per month.
under Yang's Freedom Dividend if you are incarcerated you do not get it. It is for American citizens 18 years and over.
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:35 PM
31,162 posts, read 17,027,637 times
Reputation: 14405
Originally Posted by Bulok View Post
under Yang's Freedom Dividend if you are incarcerated you do not get it. It is for American citizens 18 years and over.
Even the name is a scam since it relies on stealing freedom to adminster
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:42 PM
Location: So Cal
41,214 posts, read 40,765,683 times
Reputation: 42637
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
It is the idiotic idea of a political party that has lost its ****ing mind. Your math is admirable, but all you have to say is that we are already 22 trillion in debt.

UBI, universal healthcare, even for illegals, student loan forgiveness, green new deal...who the hell is going to pay for all of this?

If you are voting Democrat, you are intentionally trying to destroy this country, and are a traitor.
I don't know where all the money is supposed to come for all of this free stuff the Dims keep peddling. There are literally only so many Billionaires and Millionaires in this country. The middle class is going to have to be taxed pretty heavily from what I've heard over the last couple of years.

By voting democrat you are intentionally trying to destroy the country is a bit hyperbolic, I think it's just a ignorance for the most part. Free stuff sounds good, many people are too dumb and lazy to educate themselves on what that exactly is going to look like. That and anymore making less than 70k to 80k a year doesn't' give a rip. Heck, they won't be paying the burden with their 25k a year jobs. It's people in the middle class on the upper side of it that is going to get hit.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:23 PM
Location: Atlanta, GA (Sandy Springs)
6,151 posts, read 3,095,042 times
Reputation: 4503
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
Caution: luddite at work

Amazon is successful because people voluntarily shop there. Would you punish them for that?
Disagree that cheaper goods and services are "a problem" and so do most economists.
I never said anything about punishing Amazon.

A VAT to fund UBI would be on all transactions, not just Amazon's.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:25 PM
Location: Ohio
20,555 posts, read 14,605,014 times
Reputation: 16763
Originally Posted by switchtoecig View Post
UBI ie Freedom Dividend - Frequently Asked Questions

This link has answers to the following questions:
Wow. I thought Josef Göbbels was dead. Apparently he now works for Andrew Yang.

This statement is patently false:

In the next 12 years, 1 out of 3 American workers are at risk of losing their jobs to new technologies...

Wouldn’t the VAT just get passed on to consumers, “cancelling out” the UBI?

First, not all goods will be subject to the VAT. Staples such as groceries and clothing will be excluded from the VAT.
Second, the assumption that the entire VAT would get passed on to consumers is incorrect. Consumers are price sensitive, and the demand for most goods is at least somewhat elastic. While prices will likely increase on many goods, the increase will, for the most part, be smaller than the VAT as producers find more efficient ways to produce goods and adjust prices to maximize profitability.
Finally, an individual would have to buy a lot of non-exempt items in order to “cancel out” the value of the UBI.

That's false.

First, a VAT is unconstitutional. Congress has no power to levy sales taxes. Congress does have the power to levy excise taxes, which are not the same as sales taxes, but create the same effect.

The claim that the entire VAT would not be passed onto consumers is not entirely correct. Collecting an excise tax is not free. Compliance costs for businesses will increase, and those costs will be passed onto the consumer. The process of collecting and processing the excise tax will also be passed onto consumers. Where the excise tax on a particular good or service is less than the cost of compliance and processing, the costs will be passed onto consumers.

The claim that consumer goods are "somewhat elastic" is Liberals talking out of both sides of their neck.

The argument pose by Liberals to raise the federal minimum wage is predicated solely on the fact that it has "not kept pace with Inflation" (snicker).

That "Inflation" is not Monetary Inflation. Monetary Inflation is too many dollars chasing too few goods and services, and the Federal Reserve can decrease the money supply or raise interest rates or both to control Monetary Inflation, while Congress can reduce spending or increase taxes or both to control Monetary Inflation.

The "Inflation" is Demand-pull Inflation, caused by excessive Demand, over-consumption, over-use or depletion of goods, services and resources.

The mere fact that Demand-pull Inflation exists is irrefutable proof that Demand is not "somewhat elastic."

If Demand was "somewhat elastic" then people would stop consuming, seek substitutes or increase Supply, which are the only three ways to stop Demand-pull Inflation.

The claim that "producers find more efficient ways to produce goods and adjust prices to maximize profitability" fails miserably, because if producers could do that, they'd already be doing it, but they're not doing it, because they cannot.

Why does Andrew Yang want to implement the Freedom Dividend in America?

Andrew Yang wants to implement the Freedom Dividend because we are experiencing the greatest technological shift the world has ever seen.

That's another false statement and total characterization of the situation.

There were only two technological shifts in global and US history.

The first was electrification.

You have 12 guys in your furniture shop operating manual lathes with a foot-treadle to produce legs for tables, chairs and other furniture. Along comes electric lathes so you buy 3 of them and fire 9 workers because you don't need them.

That's what led to the 1925 Recession which led to the 1928 Recession which led to the 1930 Recession and the others you call the Great Depression.

The second was in the late 1960s with the introduction of computer and computer-based technology, which caused rampant Wage Inflation so severe that Nixon ordered a Wage & Price Freeze to stop Wage Inflation.

Automation creates jobs. Three robot welders displaces 3 workers, but each robot welder creates 1.3 jobs so replacing 3 welders with robots creates 4 jobs, so you're +1 to the good. Those kiosks in McDonald's do displace workers, but each kiosk creates 1.2 jobs, so replace 5 workers with kiosks and you create 6 jobs, so you're +1 to the good.

In the legal field, only 20% of Americans have access to legal services. Automation will lower the cost of legal services allowing at least 40% of Americans to have access and possibly as much as 60% of Americans. That will create 1,000s of jobs for lawyers, paralegals and legal assistants, with no losses.

Who would get the Freedom Dividend in Andrew Yang’s plan?

Every U.S. citizen over the age of 18 would receive $1,000 a month, regardless of income or employment status, free and clear. No jumping through hoops. Yes, this means you and everyone you know would receive a check for $1,000 a month starting in January 2021.

False statement.

The winner of the 2020 Election is sworn in on January 21, 2021.

There's no possible way this will be enacted and in operation in time to pay people in January.

How would we pay for the Freedom Dividend?

It would be easier than you might think. Andrew proposes funding the Freedom Dividend by consolidating some welfare programs and implementing a Value-Added Tax (VAT) of 10%. Current welfare and social program beneficiaries would be given a choice between their current benefits or $1,000 cash unconditionally – most would prefer cash with no restriction.

Most would not prefer cash, contrary to his claims.

Note that he is vague on which of the "some welfare programs" he will consolidate.

Earlier, Yangöbbels said groceries and clothing would not be taxed.

Euro-States who use a VAT exempt groceries, but not restaurants. Clothing is taxed, but clothing for infants and toddlers is not taxed. Safety equipment such as helmets for motorcycles and bicycles, skateboards and roller-blades, child car safety seats, arm-pads, knee-pads and elbow-pads used in work, sports and for cyclists and skate-boarders are not taxed. Housing, medical and legal services are not taxed.

Everything else is.

That begs the question what exactly will be taxed and how much money will actually be collected.

2. A VAT. Our economy is now incredibly vast at $19 trillion, up $4 trillion in the last 10 years alone. A VAT at half the European level would generate $800 billion in new revenue. A VAT will become more and more important as technology improves because you cannot collect income tax from robots or software.
3. New revenue. Putting money into the hands of American consumers would grow the economy. The Roosevelt Institute projected that the economy would grow by approximately $2.5 trillion and create 4.6 million new jobs. This would generate approximately $800 – 900 billion in new revenue from economic growth and activity.
4. Taxes on top earners and pollution. By removing the Social Security cap, implementing a financial transactions tax, and ending the favorable tax treatment for capital gains/carried interest, we can decrease financial speculation while also funding the Freedom Dividend. We can add to that a carbon fee that will be partially dedicated to funding the Freedom Dividend, making up the remaining balance required to cover the cost of this program.

Those are economy killers.

From the Roosevelt Institute:

Levy’s Keynesian model incorporates a series of assumptions...

Keynesian economics says it all. The increase GDP and jobs will never happen, because the only thing happening with Yangöbbels plan is a swap. All he's doing is swapping UBI with "some welfare programs" so there is no economic gain, and then to add insult to injury, he wants to tax you to death to do it.

What are the benefits of the Freedom Dividend?

Trials of various UBI plans have led to all kinds of benefits—some expected, some surprising.

More propaganda. Yangöbbels cites Sweden's plan, but ignores the 5 UBI experiments conducted in the US which proved futile.

Experiments with unconditional cash benefits around the world...

Again, Yangöbbels conspicuously ignores the 5 UBI experiments in the US. Americans and American Culture have no equivalent in the rest of the world, so what the rest of the world does is not relevant.

For the record, these are his "favorites"

Yeah, I can see where Namibia is like the US in every way.
I’ve never heard of the Freedom Dividend and Universal Basic Income. Where did it come from? Who supports it?

UBI and similar cash programs began picking up steam in the mid 20th century during the industrial revolution as early as 1918. With developed countries producing more than ever, the idea resurfaced with intensity being backed by numerous Nobel-Prize winning economists such as Milton Friedman and F.A. Hayek.

Yangöbbels lies again.

Milton Friedman never supported Universal Basic Income.

What Friedman advocated was a Negative Income Tax, which is a form of Universal Basic Income (there are many forms of Universal Basic Income the ignorant apparently aren't aware).

The arrangement that recommends itself on purely mechanical grounds is a negative income tax.

Source: Capitalism and Freedom, Friedman, Milton, The University of Chicago Press, 1962, page 158.

Friedman opposed Universal Basic Income for the reason stated:

The advantages of this arrangement [the negative income tax] are clear. It is directed specifically at
the problem of poverty. It gives help in the form most useful to the individual, namely, cash. It is general and could be substituted for the host of special measures now in effect. It makes explicit the cost borne by society. It operates outside the market. Like any other measures to alleviate poverty, it reduces the incentives of those helped to help themselves, but it does not eliminate that incentive entirely, as a system of supplementing incomes up to some fixed minimum would. An extra dollar earned always means more money available for expenditure.

[emphasis mine]

Source: Capitalism and Freedom, Friedman, Milton, The University of Chicago Press, 1962, page 158.

Wouldn’t that cause rampant inflation?

The federal government recently printed $4 trillion for the bank bailouts in its quantitative easing program with no inflation.

Yangöbbels lies again.

That money from the Quantitative Easing never entered the US economy. That money just sat in banks.

That's why there was no Monetary Inflation.

Won’t people spend their money on dumb things like drugs and alcohol?

The data doesn’t show this.

The data doesn't show it because people in Kenya and Namibia are not into alcohol or drugs.

Yangöbbels plan is a disaster, and I'm sure he'll use the total disaster as an excuse to usurp even more power from the States and create an even larger government bureaucracy to tax people even more.
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:24 PM
369 posts, read 521,812 times
Reputation: 447
Do you think you’ll spend over $10000 on vat?
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:35 PM
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,940 posts, read 14,415,365 times
Reputation: 6749
Originally Posted by atltechdude View Post
I never said anything about punishing Amazon.

A VAT to fund UBI would be on all transactions, not just Amazon's.
yeah, that's what we really need a VAT, Value added tax..that taxes AT EVERY LEVEL of manufacturing, wholesale, and retail

do you really think people who are having to choose between food costs, rent cost and utility costs are going to be able to afford a 20%-30% VAT

you just murdered 50 million plus..... typical for the leftists as they have been murdering people for a century
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:51 PM
9,073 posts, read 4,942,743 times
Reputation: 2083
We have to realize minimum wage is going to rise

That can have a negative impact on businesses and the economy

A UBI would be the reversal. Could cater the UBI to you earn more you receive more UBI. I think to avoid it being a failure and ensuring it's stability should set a cap on max income eligible for UBI.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:04 PM
25,594 posts, read 12,526,039 times
Reputation: 11043
Only utter and complete morons would contemplate handing out “free” money.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:10 PM
9,256 posts, read 4,113,175 times
Reputation: 1828
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
As I understand it, the most common number that people discuss when talking about UBI is $1000 a month for everyone in the country (including children?). That would replace Food Stamps which are $192 a month and most other forms of aid.

But I looked at the revenue of the federal government for 2018 which was $3,329,904 million. The population is 329.6 million. Keep in mind that this revenue from income tax, business, tax, plus every other source of income that the federal government has.

But when I divide those two numbers I get $10,102.86 per year or $841.91 per month per individual.

So doesn't it seem strange that at present the government is collecting $841.91 per month per individual and now talking about giving away $1000 per month per individual?

That is a change in finance that is so big that it boggles the mind.
And that change is related to slack/potential in our fiat money system.

Moving forward fiscal policy will have to become more predominant.

So as long as inflation remains nominal, successful nations will be in a position to improve on their middle class standard of living. Like HC. Through central process.

As AI and automation become more dominant and many people find themselves without a job, at some point in time a universal allowance may begin to make some sense.

And that will take a lot of new central money creation.

As long as productivity stays high (which AI and automation augment), that does not necessarily mean more inflation.

The Cowboy Economist - Printing Money Doesn't Cause Inflation ~ Mike Norman Economics
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