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Old 09-10-2019, 11:00 AM
 
13,673 posts, read 4,121,172 times
Reputation: 4060

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
IMO if we have unmet social or national needs that is where we consider sending the money. In general today we should focus on improving on the standard of living of our broad middle class.

HC, infrastructure, to name 2.
I agree, make the middle class bigger and also improve the standard of living of the working and lower class with policies that indirectly benefit or favor them.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:07 AM
 
638 posts, read 486,943 times
Reputation: 201
I think what most are failing to realize is our current economic status.


Our biggest workforce is retail at around 42 million jobs. All the Target check out and stocker jobs, Home Depot, Best Buy, Macy's, Gap, Nordstrom,hardware stores,etc.. are all on a major decline. For perspective losing those jobs is like losing 40+ big cities. That is a whole lot of jobs chewed up.

How do you think we rebound from that? When those jobs disappear and their taxes are no longer coming and companies either liquidate or go bankrupt do you think the govt is going to have enough to even pay for unemployment?

The only way we can buy time to figure all this out is put a 10% VAT tax on the top 20 S&P who have taken advantage of the system.

Do you guys think jobs are going to magically appear when these are gone? Even if you keep your job think about how your employer will use this opportunity to cut your hours, cut your benefits, and tell you ya have to do the work of 2 people now (remember 2008 anyone?).


This all sounds very doomsday I realize but the writing is on the wall and gets delivered to your doorstep everyday without having to pay taxes (Amazon).

This isn't a .com bubble or a housing bubble it's the biggest consolidation of the middle class we will ever see. It is what many are now calling the 4th industrial revolution. Automation I realize is a big word to many of you but it's not rocket science.


Please someone tell me of a different plan that is going to keep the lights on when this house of cards Chump is trying to mirage you with?
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,338 posts, read 14,463,606 times
Reputation: 16525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
The point is that a new dollar created centrally enters the economy and moves on up stimulating business transactions and the local and more broad economies. It isn't just wasted on some no count and then disappears.
Except no new dollars are created.

Replacing $1,000 of Food Stamps and WIC with $1,000 in cash does not stimulate the economy, but it does harm the economy.

I'd have to seriously question your morals and ethics, as in you have none.

The reason many children eat food, is precisely because their parents get an EBT card that can only be spent on food and not cash to be spent on anything the parents want, like beer, or drugs, or tattoos, or gambling and lotto or prostitutes or bling.

This is a perfect example:

https://www.wlwt.com/article/mother-...alone/28973421

14 hours ago - WLWT. Updated: 11:39 PM EDT Sep 9, 2019. Jatara McGee ... Cincinnati District 3 police said Hawkins left her three children at home with ... Police found the children a couple of miles away, walking alone and without shoes.

That's a 7-, 5- and 2-year old.

Mother had to go to Happy Hour, you know? Happy Hour's important. Happy Hour is the most important thing.

You give her $1,000 instead of SNAP and that $1,000 goes to Happy Hour, drugs and bling.

Her children don't eat.

It's unconscionable that you would let that happen, just so you can feel good about yourself with UBI.

She's not going to intentionally starve her children. She's not cruel. No, she's just ignorant, incompetent, irresponsible and reckless.

And giving her $1,000 in cash in lieu of SNAP & WIC benefits isn't going to morph her into a competent, responsible mother.

Multiply that by 10 Million and that's the disaster you've created.

You're going to ruin the lives of innocent children, just so you can feel better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnytang24 View Post
Can you list the programs that could be ended?
No, I guarantee it will be like Obamacare: You have to pass it to see what's in it.

Fortunately, the Republican-controlled Senate will smack that nonsense down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
I don't think these program have worked since all the above are local programs. Local jurisdictions cannot create money. Only at the federal level.
Um, those were federal programs.

The federal government ordered those experiments to be conducted.

The federal government set up those programs, the federal government funded 100% of those programs, the federal government monitored those programs, the federal government collected data from those programs.

The federal government ran two of those programs for 10 freaking years (Denver and Seattle).

Count 'em, 1, 2, 3, 4...10.

You can't claim Denver and Seattle are not representative of large US cities, because that would be absurd.

Those 5 experiments run by the federal government did not achieve the desired results.

Don't forget the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate, and it was Democrats who ordered up this program and ensured it was funded.

When you have Liberals like Senators Daniel Inouye, Edmund Muskie, Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, Birch Bayh, Howard Metzenbaum, Lloyd Bentsen, Ernest Hollings and Adlai Stevenson saying it ain't gonna work, you just might want to listen to them.

Why do you think Joe Biden isn't harping on UBI?

Um, cuz he was there --when it was happening -- and witnessed its failure.

That's one reason why Biden is against it and slamming others who propose it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal77 View Post
How do you think we rebound from that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
So in a world of automation where the majority of people don't earn enough to be consumers, the companies will have to agree to pool their money together hand it out to people and pay them to become consumers and then they compete amongst each other and try to recover as much as possible from that pool of money.
The same way you rebound from everything else.

Automation is not the job-killer people claim it is and repeatedly claiming falsely that automation is a job-killer does not make it a job-killer.

Andrew Yangöbbels claims 4 Million manufacturing jobs were lost, and yet nowhere has that ever been reflected in employment figures.

That's because for every job automation takes, it creates 1 or more new jobs.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:26 PM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,611 posts, read 14,253,832 times
Reputation: 6625
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal77 View Post
I think what most are failing to realize is our current economic status.


Our biggest workforce is retail at around 42 million jobs. All the Target check out and stocker jobs, Home Depot, Best Buy, Macy's, Gap, Nordstrom,hardware stores,etc.. are all on a major decline. For perspective losing those jobs is like losing 40+ big cities. That is a whole lot of jobs chewed up.

How do you think we rebound from that? When those jobs disappear and their taxes are no longer coming and companies either liquidate or go bankrupt do you think the govt is going to have enough to even pay for unemployment?

The only way we can buy time to figure all this out is put a 10% VAT tax on the top 20 S&P who have taken advantage of the system.

Do you guys think jobs are going to magically appear when these are gone? Even if you keep your job think about how your employer will use this opportunity to cut your hours, cut your benefits, and tell you ya have to do the work of 2 people now (remember 2008 anyone?).


This all sounds very doomsday I realize but the writing is on the wall and gets delivered to your doorstep everyday without having to pay taxes (Amazon).

This isn't a .com bubble or a housing bubble it's the biggest consolidation of the middle class we will ever see. It is what many are now calling the 4th industrial revolution. Automation I realize is a big word to many of you but it's not rocket science.


Please someone tell me of a different plan that is going to keep the lights on when this house of cards Chump is trying to mirage you with?
a 10% vat on the top 20 S&P will only get you 900 billion.... essentially what medicare costs today......certainly not enough to pay 1000/month to the 250 million people over 18
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:44 PM
 
638 posts, read 486,943 times
Reputation: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The same way you rebound from everything else.

Automation is not the job-killer people claim it is and repeatedly claiming falsely that automation is a job-killer does not make it a job-killer.

Andrew Yangöbbels claims 4 Million manufacturing jobs were lost, and yet nowhere has that ever been reflected in employment figures.

That's because for every job automation takes, it creates 1 or more new jobs.


Unbelievable.


If you believe this I cannot have a conversation with you.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:53 PM
 
638 posts, read 486,943 times
Reputation: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
a 10% vat on the top 20 S&P will only get you 900 billion.... essentially what medicare costs today......certainly not enough to pay 1000/month to the 250 million people over 18

You might review your Medicare budget findings.



Trump 2019 Discretionary budget
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/a...hing-military/


Trumps 2020 Discretionary
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/b...udget-request/
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:04 PM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,611 posts, read 14,253,832 times
Reputation: 6625
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal77 View Post
You might review your Medicare budget findings.



Trump 2019 Discretionary budget
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/a...hing-military/


Trumps 2020 Discretionary
https://www.nationalpriorities.org/b...udget-request/




instead of giving me a biased blog


try the actual budget


in 2016 medicare was 691 billion

what is even more interesting is what the predicted outlays will be in the future
in 2016 medicare was 691 billion
prediction for 2020....963 billion
prediction for 2026....1.383 Trillion



lets now add in Medicaid
Medicaid
:
2000.....117 billion
2008.....201 billion
2016.....368 billion

actual Medicaid 2016.....368 billion
prediction for 2020....450 billion
prediction for 2026....616 Billion


so the prediction is medicare and Medicaid is expected to be over 2 trillion dollars is less than 8 years
that's just the GOVERNMENT costs of Medicare and Medicaid
... and medicare/Medicaid covers less than 1/6 of our population..
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:33 PM
 
24,996 posts, read 12,278,532 times
Reputation: 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal77 View Post
Unbelievable.


If you believe this I cannot have a conversation with you.
So your delicate liberal sensibilities were abused?
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:47 PM
 
8,988 posts, read 4,854,579 times
Reputation: 2069
UBI won't replace SNAP or WIC or unemployment benefits.

It's a possible replacement to those on SSI who opt out and extra cash in the pockets of those not on SSI.

Also an individual be eligible for State financial assistance.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Planet earth
3,406 posts, read 1,358,905 times
Reputation: 1161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
That's just one scenario and story. Not every owner/manager risked their own money or started the business. A lot of employees risked a lot of money and invested time to become educated and investing in what ever else required to be employable. Besides you switched the argument from earning income by "one's own effort's, labor and intellect" to earning income by "risking money" and owning the income generating enterprise. Which is it?

There is no, "which is it?" in what I wrote. You ATTACKED business owners making more, demanding more for their employees. Well the truth is is many cases, due to government interference with the market, many employees aren't worth what they are being paid. This, due to the price structure of basic and advanced economics, causes one or several of the following: Less employees doing more work, increased prices for goods and services provided, less capital gains for investors who invested in that business, and finally (even though this list is far from complete, it just touches on the basics) a move by the business to automate as many tasks as it can to reduce labor and benefit costs.

Personally, I give a tinker's damn about the education costs incurred by the employee as that was a CHOICE they made. I see very few unemployed people with the following education: Chemical Engineers, Chemists with a master's, electrical engineers, physicists, mathematicians, statisticians, registered nurses, physician's assistants, geologists with either a BS or MS, pharmacists with a MS, doctors, surgeons, nuclear physicists, physical therapists with a MS or PhD, even good mechanics with proper certifications, especially heavy equipment mechanics, GOOD carpenters and GOOD plumbers/pipe fitters and on and on...

What you want is for people at Target, Walmart, the GAP, mall type stores, fast food, etc., to make serious money when the FACT is they typically aren't worth the money they make and there is a reason they are employed in the places they work, be it due to a lack of social skills, a lack of common sense, etc.

The fact that an RN (minimum BSN preferred MSN) with a CEN, ICU cert and certs for cath lab procedures can demand and get earnings of 80K in rural America and even much higher in certain large city markets like Chicago, Seattle, Dallas, NYC, or just about any other major city indicates these people have skills and provide value to their employer, where ever they are. A PA (physician's assistant) can demand and get 100K to 120K in rural America. Anyone with the mental and physical capacity can train in those fields or any of the others I mentioned above. But don't even try to think that their employers are only earning a similar amount, because they aren't. They earn MUCH more and they're worth every penny they earn.

I absolutely despise people who try to suggest life isn't fair when each of us, as long as we have the mental and physical ability, can train for and find a good paying job IF they only tried, rather than sitting on their collective, worthless asses, complaining about how it isn't fair that they aren't making more.

Life is about choices and sacrifices. If we make the correct choices and sacrifices, we succeed. Employers, actual business owners go even a step further because they first must risk their savings, and/or take out risky loans, hoping that they succeed, that their business succeeds, and IF they hire someone, hoping and praying that person(s) treats the business as if they themselves had risked everything to make that business succeeds. More times than not, what they end up with is people like YOU. People who think they are entitled simply because they exist.

Stop demanding a "right" to leech off society and start actually working toward earning what you get from society.


But then again, that's just MY opinion, for what it's worth.
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