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Old 09-10-2019, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Barrington
47,589 posts, read 34,922,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What is FLDS?

I think the adults chose to come to a free country. That should mean they've freed their female family members. Any other view would validate the Dred Scott decision.
Ah yes, SCOTUS ruled 7-2 that neither Scott nor any other person of African descent could claim citizenship and therefore could not sue.

Slaves did however, count as 3/5th human as far as the Census for representation purposes.

There can be serious cultural consequences when a woman bucks her family’s cultural practices. Women who choose to not comply with the cultural practices of their Hasidic communities, are usually shunned by their community, including their parents and siblings. Same happens in some Muslim, FDLS, Amish, etc communities. Used to happen in Catholic communities upon divorce.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Barrington
47,589 posts, read 34,922,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
My solution is not to allow non-Westerners and anti-Westerners to immigrate and come here to parasite, prey and impose in the first place. Just like it was before 1965 and then we can go back to a more libertarian government because we'll have real citizens again who don't need monitoring by a police state.
Because “ real citizens” have never lied, cheated, stole, raped, tortured or murdered?
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Barrington
47,589 posts, read 34,922,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
Thanks for the heads up, I'm interested in the book. I watched a story about two girls who defected from Saudi Arabia to Turkey, they were sisters and their father was trying to find them and bring them back to Saudi Arabia, where they could have been killed. In these instances the Saudi govt. sends out people to find the escapees, and what they return to could ultimately be an execution. These girls explained they had to have a male chaperone their entire life! And they married whoever the family wanted them to marry, their only reason for existence, it seems, is to have children. Truly a barbaric, backwards culture that is steeped in violence and sexual deviancy.
You are talking about a US ally who have bought a lot of stuff from Trump over the years, according to Trump.

The US does not care so long as they keep buying US war toys.

Got to continue poking the US beak into the business of the Middle East to keep countries at each other's throats. Has not mattered much who sat the oval or held the majority.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:32 AM
 
Location: New York Area
16,906 posts, read 6,669,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
To parasite, prey and impose upon the Western Culture host. But the left doesn't let the Western host protect itself anymore, because they are doing the same thing.
The real problem is that these "people" come to free countries voluntarily, take advantage of the freedom but don't allow the females and children similar freedoms. It's rank hypocrisy if you think about it.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Barrington
47,589 posts, read 34,922,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
When did polygyny become legal in the US? It hasn't. And child marriage? The head of the FLDS church was sent to prison because of it, whenever that was--a couple decades ago, or so. From Wiki:



They may choose not to believe in the US gov't's authority over them, but the gov't can raid their communities whenever it has just cause, whether the residents "believe in" the gov't or not. Your own linked articles is headlined "Lawmakers Going After FLDS Polygamy Compound..", so why are you misleadingly posting that what they do is legal?
Not all fundamentalist Mormons are the same Not all polygamists are the same. And most Mormons do not practice polygamy.

Warren Jeffs had 70-80 “ celestial” marriages and multiple children by each wife. Those wives typically claimed welfare benefits. He arranged marriages between older males and underage girls, sometimes as young as age 12-14.

There are plural marriage compounds in Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Colorado, North Dakota and Canada.
The one in North Dakota has not reported a birth or death in years and take no welfare.

Others are small rural enclaves of consenting adults who believe in plural marriage. Most of the women are employed outside the home. I would love to see their tax returns. Does the father claim all his children as dependents or are the dependents parsed to their bio mother? How are they insured?

The “ celestial” marriages are not legal. Nothing prohibits a man from fathering children with multiple women who consent. Nothing prevents anyone from claiming the refundable Child Tax Credit for each child.

Children tend to be home schooled.

No flags are raised so long as these families don’t attempt to play the system or abuse children.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Barrington
47,589 posts, read 34,922,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The real problem is that these "people" come to free countries voluntarily, take advantage of the freedom but don't allow the females and children similar freedoms. It's rank hypocrisy if you think about it.
“ These people” ?

Do you need a hand to lift that broad brush?
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:18 AM
 
17,533 posts, read 4,646,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom View Post
Not all fundamentalist Mormons are the same Not all polygamists are the same. And most Mormons do not practice polygamy.
m claiming the refundable Child Tax Credit for each child.

Children tend to be home schooled.

No flags are raised so long as these families don’t attempt to play the system or abuse children.
Home schooled to 3rd or 4th grade level - is that legal?

Where do the millions of dollars to buy vast land tracts and build temples on come from? As you are getting at, I'd like to see the tax returns on all this money.

It's not just a question of what is legal and accepted - my point with FDLS or Koresh, etc. is that the "Western Way" they practice and live is not what most Americans would consider to be our culture.

We can't allow "anything goes" with all these groups and Hasidim and so on and then, all of a sudden, claim that some group with different color skin is somehow different.

Tell you this much - the Government sent the FBI and even the CIA after the Hippies and War Protestors. J Edgar had vast files on all of them (activists) and the government even actively shut many of them down (flooded communities with heroin etc. etc.).
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:20 AM
 
Location: New York Area
16,906 posts, read 6,669,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineDeCoeur View Post
Not sure how certain unfortunate situations among certain ethnic groups equates to no rule of law in ethnic enclaves in the West. It’s amusing how desperate some of you are to maintain your prejudices.
When police find it too dangerous to enter these enclaves that is definitely the case. You will no doubt come back and say that these areas can police themselves. But not when women and children and gays are brutally and savagely attacked.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:32 AM
 
Location: New York Area
16,906 posts, read 6,669,974 times
Reputation: 12990
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Any other view would validate the Dred Scott decision.
Ah yes, SCOTUS ruled 7-2 that neither Scott nor any other person of African descent could claim citizenship and therefore could not sue.

Slaves did however, count as 3/5th human as far as the Census for representation purposes.
Blessedly Dred Scott had a short half-life of about 10-12 years, when the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments were promulgated and ratified. The U.S. in no way adheres to Dred Scott. It is usually catalogued as among the worst decisions ever by most law journals when they do historical analysis. Only slightly less bad is Plessy v. Ferguson. And Korematsu, while remotely defensible is still a horror. Also there are decisions such as Lochner v. New York striking down child labor laws, minimum wages and worker safety law. Societies are allowed, after debate, to evolve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I think the adults chose to come to a free country. That should mean they've freed their female family members.
There can be serious cultural consequences when a woman bucks her family’s cultural practices. Women who choose to not comply with the cultural practices of their Hasidic communities, are usually shunned by their community, including their parents and siblings. Same happens in some Muslim, FDLS, Amish, etc communities. Used to happen in Catholic communities upon divorce.
I don't know much about FDLS, but the consequences of such "bucking" are generally non-lethal. There is, to be fair, one contra-example in my area. The Chasidim, who I call "rats on two legs" (and I am Jewish) sometimes look askance on someone who changes their place of worship. They tried to burn one young man alive who made that decision. His attackers, however, I believe were convicted of attempted murder. The founder of FDLS is serving a life sentence. So we do enforce the law here. My complaint is the failure of governments to enforce the law in certain other enclaves.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:55 AM
 
40,442 posts, read 24,779,714 times
Reputation: 12851
First of all, it should be noted, this book is about a young girl raised in England, not in the USA. Secondly, the restrictions put on women are the legacy of patriarchal culture. And the United States has been progressing away from the patriarchal systems that the world's dominant religions have given us. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam ALL saw women as lesser than men. Less intelligent, less capable, less moral, and therefore needing to be protected and managed. That protection and management meant controlled. Women in patriarchal cultures have to be controlled. The more patriarchal the culture, the more men have to demonstrate their power, the more restrictions are placed on women.

The saddest thing is that women raised in these cultures are raised to believe in these restrictions against women. They believe that men have better judgment than women, and that women need to be controlled. They see women that defy the restrictions as women that have been misled, women who are straying from what is moral and right. And so women become complicit in the abuse against women.

This is true in subcultures in the West that are patriarchal in nature, whether that subculture is an Islam community in England, or an FDLS community in the United States.

The best chance of women around the world escaping these restrictions is for women's empowerment to continue to progress in the West. Women need to continue to lead countries on the world stage, they need to continue to pursue higher education, they need to continue to develop economic independence. And it will be a struggle. The advancement of women in the United States gets pushed back, not because there is a war between the sexes, but because the culture of patriarchy is woven into our society, just as it is woven into Pakistani society.

Last night I was listening to a news program, regarding Afghanistan and the Taliban, and negotiations with the Taliban. And one of the commentators was discussing that negotiations with the Taliban have to include continuing some of the changes that have been made there since the United States invaded. Things like girls receiving an education, and being taught to read and write.

While many people advocate the United States becoming more isolationist in its policies, one of the great things that we've accomplished globally is that we've advanced women's rights globally. And in places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, there is a lot of pushback against women's rights. Not only by men, but by women as well, who think that women who think they are the equals of men are immoral women, that equality is an immoral idea.

Once upon a time the morality of blacks being equal to whites was a question. Personally, I don't think equality should ever be a question, but the truth is that religion has often been used as a tool of oppression. And as long as there are men that think that women are somehow lesser, it will continue to be used as a tool of oppression.
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