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Old 09-10-2019, 12:42 PM
 
17,468 posts, read 4,626,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
Well increasing matriarchy and decreasing patriarchy does and is associated with decline in the West. It's not the female role or capability to defend and maintain a culture. The West has always been plenty kind maybe too kind to women vs men in my view.
Can you spell out the specific decline?

It would seem things, looked at from the Big Picture, are going very well in Europe and in the USA and Canada.

Maybe it's because you don't see it? Your life is enhanced every day by work women are doing. From biotech to regular medicine to the social sciences, education, conventional and alternative medicine, etc......

The "Western" Culture is really undefined. We could opine that it was Europe, killing each other in bulk for many 100's of years. Or that the USA, with "empty" (not really) ground created a certain unsustainable culture due to unlimited land, resources, etc. - but now we've largely run out of that free stuff.

We take the good and throw out the bad. We'll take a lot of Thomas Jeffersons words and studies - at the same time rejecting his lack of fiscal prudence (died broke) and the "slave thing".

We'll take some of the European philosophies and try to do away with the tribalism and militarism that caused constant war.

For the first time in history we have the ability to do this - to use data and science and all the lessons of the past to enhance our culture. What it will eventually be called....is not of any concern.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Can you spell out the specific decline?

It would seem things, looked at from the Big Picture, are going very well in Europe and in the USA and Canada.

Maybe it's because you don't see it? Your life is enhanced every day by work women are doing. From biotech to regular medicine to the social sciences, education, conventional and alternative medicine, etc......

The "Western" Culture is really undefined. We could opine that it was Europe, killing each other in bulk for many 100's of years. Or that the USA, with "empty" (not really) ground created a certain unsustainable culture due to unlimited land, resources, etc. - but now we've largely run out of that free stuff.

We take the good and throw out the bad. We'll take a lot of Thomas Jeffersons words and studies - at the same time rejecting his lack of fiscal prudence (died broke) and the "slave thing".

We'll take some of the European philosophies and try to do away with the tribalism and militarism that caused constant war.

For the first time in history we have the ability to do this - to use data and science and all the lessons of the past to enhance our culture. What it will eventually be called....is not of any concern.
The Western Decline began about 1915 from where it could've and should've been today. But it really accelerated around 1962.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
Men and women are not identicals though. Being treated identically is inequality. Western patriarchies are more kind and fair to women than matriarchy is fair and kind to men. Women are not capable and in the majority will not and do not maintain a culture. That's a male role from the very beginning.
I'm not advocating for a matriarchy, so why do you keep harping on that.

Women are capable, and they are largely responsible for maintaining a culture. It's not a male role at all.

Being treated as an equal is equality.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
The Western Decline began about 1915 from where it could've and should've been today. But it really accelerated around 1962.
What decline?

As far as women are concerned, things have improved. Women aren't the property of their husbands. Women can make legal and financial decisions without getting approval of their male family members. Women can pursue careers of their choice. Women can and do attend higher learning institutions. Men are no longer entitled to rape their wives (but only since the 1970's). Women have access to birth control (but only since the 60's)

If you believe that the "Western Decline" involves women's rights, then I invite you to try to live as if you were a second-class citizen. Because those days for women are over, at least in the United States. Women have voices, and are prepared to use their voices.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:01 PM
 
5,854 posts, read 1,179,257 times
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I'm not advocating for a matriarchy, so why do you keep harping on that.

Women are capable, and they are largely responsible for maintaining a culture. It's not a male role at all.

Being treated as an equal is equality.
If women also have a big responsible for cultural maintenance, then why do we seem to hear more about cultural patriarchies beyond there being few cultures where women are really in charge?
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
What decline?

As far as women are concerned, things have improved. Women aren't the property of their husbands. Women can make legal and financial decisions without getting approval of their male family members. Women can pursue careers of their choice. Women can and do attend higher learning institutions. Men are no longer entitled to rape their wives (but only since the 1970's). Women have access to birth control (but only since the 60's)

If you believe that the "Western Decline" involves women's rights, then I invite you to try to live as if you were a second-class citizen. Because those days for women are over, at least in the United States. Women have voices, and are prepared to use their voices.
That's the way women tend to think and therein lies the problem. But not every woman agrees society has improved since the 1960s and 1970s, just mostly leftist and feminist types.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
That's the way women tend to think and therein lies the problem. But not every woman agrees society has improved since the 1960s and 1970s, just mostly leftist and feminist types.
The entire statement makes assumptions......

The "same woman" is not the same age and place as she was in the 1960's....so you cannot get an accurate comparison of such. Each woman is different depending on class, tradition and many other factors.

I had a SIL who was more of a Man than any guy I knew. She could do better in business, better in sports, better in thinking, better in sales and so on....yet she was a knockout. Employers would take her in and within a year she'd be running the business.

The difference today is that there are more choices...doesn't mean the choices suit all or even a majority.

I think I have an accurate take on this due to my age, experience and having two daughters. That is, I have seen all sides of the equation many times. Our kids, born in the 1970's, pursued higher education even tho I hadn't and my wife hadn't. They made their own choices and both become mothers.....later.

I'm old fashioned but not as old fashioned as you appear...what I told my daughters, which is always true, is that you have to decide what you want to do/be. No one can have it all. I don't think they listened to me but at this point they realize I was right.

Anyway, where you are very wrong about culture is this. Culture is ultimately family based....as a starter. Women tend to hold up the family portion of most Clan better then men. In my extended family it is usually the Females that keep in touch with others and set up reunions and such. Given free rein, a lot of the males would just pull back from the family and just work, work, work and watch sports or whatever.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eumaois View Post
If women also have a big responsible for cultural maintenance, then why do we seem to hear more about cultural patriarchies beyond there being few cultures where women are really in charge?
To me, cultural maintenance is largely about raising children within that culture. It's about teaching the upcoming generations the stories, songs and history that a culture values. And who does that? Mainly the mothers. It's about passing on rules and rites and customs and heritage. Who does that? Mostly the mothers. It's about how to celebrate holidays, weddings, birthdays, and other events. It's about how to mourn for those who've passed. It's about the food we eat, the clothes we wear. I'm not saying that men don't play a role in passing down their culture, because they play an important role. But I don't discount the role that women play as well.

And why do you want to discuss matriarchy? I don't get that. Do you believe that the societies in the world have to be patriarchal or matriarchal? There's room, I think, for societies that treat the genders as equals. Equal rights, equal respect.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:35 PM
 
40,442 posts, read 24,769,531 times
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Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
That's the way women tend to think and therein lies the problem. But not every woman agrees society has improved since the 1960s and 1970s, just mostly leftist and feminist types.
Certainly, there are women who are more invested in patriarchy. I think I made that point in the first post I made on this thread. But if you think that a world where men were entitled to rape their wives was a better world, then I suggest you try to imagine what it would be like for someone that you trust to betray you in the most egregious fashion.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:40 PM
 
13,685 posts, read 4,218,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Certainly, there are women who are more invested in patriarchy. I think I made that point in the first post I made on this thread. But if you think that a world where men were entitled to rape their wives was a better world, then I suggest you try to imagine what it would be like for someone that you trust to betray you in the most egregious fashion.
If your wife thinks you raped her then she's not really a wife and he's not really a husband, but until separated there should be no such thing legally.
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