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Old 09-10-2019, 03:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
That does not mean that we should go to patriarchy in the Pakistani sense.
If the argument that there is implied consent between a husband and wife that makes it okay for him to force himself on her, then I would think the Pakistani imam would argue that his daughter was his property and he had every right to discipline her as he saw fit. Both instances are patriarchal, both discount the woman as a human being and see her as property that her male guardians can handle as they see fit.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Columbia MO
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Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Have you read about the FLDS?

Tens of thousands - 100's of millions of dollars buying land in various states. Abusing the welfare system, multiple wives and abuse of most ALL involved.

Totally legal....you can go there today.

For whatever reason the "live and let live" spirit in American means this is all OK.
Well, it's not legal, but they do a good job of disguising things, like only legally marrying one woman, then the other wives go on AFDC as "single" mothers.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
It's too much of a can of worms when you have such an extreme feminist agenda. Consent has to be assumed during marriage. If a woman is not happy with her husband and their sex life, then she should separate.
I don't remember our vows saying "and you will be able to have sex on demand til death do you part" - but, then again, those vows are Western Culture, not Incel or Red Pill culture.

The same people who tell us sex is for reproduction now tell us it is not? Or do you think a Man should be able to have 20 kids just on demand?
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
If the argument that there is implied consent between a husband and wife that makes it okay for him to force himself on her, then I would think the Pakistani imam would argue that his daughter was his property and he had every right to discipline her as he saw fit. Both instances are patriarchal, both discount the woman as a human being and see her as property that her male guardians can handle as they see fit.
That's a leap. Implied consent just means there can only be things like assault in a clearly broken down marriage that hasn't yet separated. Who cares what some Pakistani imam argues? There shouldn't be any Pakistani cultural influence and people in America to begin with. America has its own glorious Anglo culture to look to for inspiration and guidance.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
Well, it's not legal, but they do a good job of disguising things, like only legally marrying one woman, then the other wives go on AFDC as "single" mothers.
Well, yeah, what I mean by "totally legal" is that you won't find Righties and anti-immigration types racing on CD about it because they have white skin and so on.....

It was interesting that it wasn't held against Romney that their family "unpatriotically" fled into Mexico so they could have plural marriage. That's two-for. Of course, they also enlist in the Military in lower numbers too...so going to Mexico helped with that one too.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
That's a leap. Who cares what some Pakistani imam argues? There shouldn't be any Pakistani cultural influence and people in America to begin with. America has its own glorious Anglo culture to look to for inspiration and guidance.
Is Anglo culture the idea of colonialism, bring born with the status you keep (knowing your place) and the Monarchies?

I'd bite just a tad if you said "post French Revolution Culture" or something like that. But the USA and UK are fairly unique in being class and money driven (more inequality even now).

I'd love to know exactly where we find this Anglo culture. I know my Italian side doesn't qualify and the Greeks and Romans that laid the foundations for modern Democracy and engineering...they don't qualify.

My take is that you have some ideals of a romanticized Anglo culture which doesn't include brothers shooting one million artillery shells at each other in a single day.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:33 PM
 
40,437 posts, read 24,746,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
That's a leap. Who cares what some Pakistani imam argues? There shouldn't be any Pakistani cultural influence and people in America to begin with. America has its own glorious Anglo culture to look to for inspiration and guidance.
This thread is about events in England, not America.

And the reason that it matters what "some Pakistani imam argues" is that it goes to patriarchal cultures and the damage they do to women. America has progressed, but still has some patriarchal baggage to rid itself of. And England does, too.

But the fact that it happened in England, where laws exist to prevent what happened to this young girl, and even so, she did not feel that she could access those protections, tells us how deeply embedded we all are in our culture.

Just like your argument that within a marriage consent is implicit tells us how deeply embedded you are in the patriarchal culture that is eroding away in American society.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
This thread is about events in England, not America.

And the reason that it matters what "some Pakistani imam argues" is that it goes to patriarchal cultures and the damage they do to women. America has progressed, but still has some patriarchal baggage to rid itself of. And England does, too.

But the fact that it happened in England, where laws exist to prevent what happened to this young girl, and even so, she did not feel that she could access those protections, tells us how deeply embedded we all are in our culture.

Just like your argument that within a marriage consent is implicit tells us how deeply embedded you are in the patriarchal culture that is eroding away in American society.
Same principle, shouldn't be Pakistani culture and people there either. Western patriarchy is superior so don't lump them all together.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:49 PM
 
40,437 posts, read 24,746,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
Same principle, shouldn't be Pakistani culture and people there either. Western patriarchy is superior so don't lump them all together.
Patriarchy is bad for women. Period. The attitude that women are not equal to men is bad for women. Period. The imam was a bad man who used his position and his culture to do bad things. I would wish that he would be punished by English law for the things he did, and even if the statute of limitations has run out on the crimes he committed against this girl, his belief that he was morally right would make me think he's done terrible things to others as well, since this girl escaped him.

I think, though, that patting yourself on the back for "Western patriarchy" is a mistake. Until we live in a world where all human beings are appreciated and treated equally, where our contributions are recognized and our individual perspectives are respected, then we can pat ourselves on the back. Patriarchies of any variety are obstacles that have to be overcome. And that won't happen in my lifetime. I am only grateful for the progress that we've made during the past century.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:52 PM
 
13,685 posts, read 4,205,352 times
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Patriarchy is bad for women. Period. The attitude that women are not equal to men is bad for women. Period. The imam was a bad man who used his position and his culture to do bad things. I would wish that he would be punished by English law for the things he did, and even if the statute of limitations has run out on the crimes he committed against this girl, his belief that he was morally right would make me think he's done terrible things to others as well, since this girl escaped him.

I think, though, that patting yourself on the back for "Western patriarchy" is a mistake. Until we live in a world where all human beings are appreciated and treated equally, where our contributions are recognized and our individual perspectives are respected, then we can pat ourselves on the back. Patriarchies of any variety are obstacles that have to be overcome. And that won't happen in my lifetime. I am only grateful for the progress that we've made during the past century.
No it's not. It is the natural and fair state of condition.
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