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Old 09-10-2019, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
10,122 posts, read 2,833,973 times
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https://books.google.ca/books?id=y1W...page&q&f=false

In 1978 72% of Americans called the war fundamentally wrong and immoral.

As time went on the numbers consistently dropped and in 2000 only 35% thought it was wrong and immoral while even more (37%) thought it was honorable.

I know the media defends the war as a mistake rather than a war crime, and I know Americans don't care about means when the ends justify them (Vietnam today is a growing and healthy industrial economy). I also know in a lot of ways the Vietnam war was good for American geopolitical power as we have Vietnam as an ally now.

But why do less Americans see it as immoral, and so consistently less overtime? Do we know less about it, did we forget who Ho Chi Minh was, what the French war was about, what the Geneva conference agreed to?

Or is it that Americans have become more patriotic?
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:20 AM
 
980 posts, read 296,631 times
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the death toll is 3,000,000 dead Vietnamese 58,000 Americans...Americans don't know a whole lot about foreign policy in general we now have over glorification of the military all this is consistent with the general shifting to the right as our country is, as viewed from the world standard of free peoples...short answer NO mystery


in 1941 FDR proposed the Atlantic charter and ho chi minh was ignored every time he approached the united states...
in the 1950s we had McCarthyism and domino theory Nixon to wail up red menace hysteria..the US supported the colonialism of a continued french-Vietnam in an effort to persuade France to join NATO..blackmailed so-to-speak...


we did not take into account the years of Vietnamese/Chinese hostility and the civil war nature of Vietnam and let are politicians take over..our state department profession advice was put aside because of fear mongering conservatives in effect

Last edited by elvis44102; 09-10-2019 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
2,011 posts, read 3,846,203 times
Reputation: 3522
I think there is also a certain amount of collective guilt regarding how the American soldiers were treated once they got back home. I realize this is a somewhat separate issue about whether the war itself was moral or immoral, but some at the time were unable to separate how they felt about the war and how they treated the soldiers and a lot of soldiers - many of whom were drafted rather than volunteered - were ridiculed and worse when they got home. I expect some of that may be seeping into the feelings for the war itself, especially so many years later.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:58 AM
 
16,896 posts, read 4,434,961 times
Reputation: 11760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
https://books.google.ca/books?id=y1W...page&q&f=false

In 1978 72% of Americans called the war fundamentally wrong and immoral.

As time went on the numbers consistently dropped and in 2000 only 35% thought it was wrong and immoral while even more (37%) thought it was honorable.

I know the media defends the war as a mistake rather than a war crime, and I know Americans don't care about means when the ends justify them (Vietnam today is a growing and healthy industrial economy). I also know in a lot of ways the Vietnam war was good for American geopolitical power as we have Vietnam as an ally now.

But why do less Americans see it as immoral, and so consistently less overtime? Do we know less about it, did we forget who Ho Chi Minh was, what the French war was about, what the Geneva conference agreed to?

Or is it that Americans have become more patriotic?
I'd say it is just ignorance of history. I'd also suggest that if you took a poll today the numbers could be different.

Here's the situation in bullet points.

1. The longer Americans go without their kids coming home in body bags, the more "patriotic" - or forgetful - they become.

2. One very sad result of the Gulf War was the falsehood that War is easy.....don't even get me started about how many soldier are now poisoned due to various mistakes our military and government made there.
Still, time....and "it's easy" formed a lot of the opinion by the year 2000.

Public opinion is a poor abeiter of history.....for example, ask Americans about the greatest POTUS and it will usually (after the real biggies) be slanted toward those during their lifetimes or modern times.

It's only been since about 2005 that hundreds of books and memoirs have been written by Soldiers who were in Vietnam. I've read perhaps 15+ or them...only ONE of them (written by a Top!) was positive about the war.

Last edited by craigiri; 09-10-2019 at 12:21 PM..
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:09 AM
 
Location: San Jose
2,278 posts, read 692,050 times
Reputation: 2364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
https://books.google.ca/books?id=y1W...page&q&f=false

In 1978 72% of Americans called the war fundamentally wrong and immoral.

As time went on the numbers consistently dropped and in 2000 only 35% thought it was wrong and immoral while even more (37%) thought it was honorable.

I know the media defends the war as a mistake rather than a war crime, and I know Americans don't care about means when the ends justify them (Vietnam today is a growing and healthy industrial economy). I also know in a lot of ways the Vietnam war was good for American geopolitical power as we have Vietnam as an ally now.

But why do less Americans see it as immoral, and so consistently less overtime? Do we know less about it, did we forget who Ho Chi Minh was, what the French war was about, what the Geneva conference agreed to?

Or is it that Americans have become more patriotic?
The 1980's saw the rise of a very overt form of American ultra-nationalism and with it a societal trend toward glorification of the armed forces, specifically those in combat roles. This overall trend was further exacerbated by 911, the Iraq War and our nations collective response toward being attacked.

Can you imagine Hollywood studios releasing films now that depict American soldiers as amoral or in some cases as the villains like they did with films like The Deer Hunter (1978), Full Metal Jacket (1987) and Apocalypse Now (1979). Contrast the tone of those films with a movie like We Were Soldiers (2002) and look how different the depiction of the war was presented to the audience.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Northwest Peninsula
3,303 posts, read 1,651,961 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
https://books.google.ca/books?id=y1W...page&q&f=false

In 1978 72% of Americans called the war fundamentally wrong and immoral.

As time went on the numbers consistently dropped and in 2000 only 35% thought it was wrong and immoral while even more (37%) thought it was honorable.

I know the media defends the war as a mistake rather than a war crime, and I know Americans don't care about means when the ends justify them (Vietnam today is a growing and healthy industrial economy). I also know in a lot of ways the Vietnam war was good for American geopolitical power as we have Vietnam as an ally now.

But why do less Americans see it as immoral, and so consistently less overtime? Do we know less about it, did we forget who Ho Chi Minh was, what the French war was about, what the Geneva conference agreed to?

Or is it that Americans have become more patriotic?

In the beginning of the war when I was drafted I was in full support of the war, but after seeing the very large number of young Vietnam men walking around and letting US forces do the fighting and dying I stopped my support. And i feel the same today.
With that said no war can be fought with both hands tied behind ones back with no win rules of engagement set by politicians and PCness. Wars, no matter what the reason they are fought has to fought by the generals not by politicians or whiny civilians.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:29 AM
 
Location: USA
19,270 posts, read 9,346,219 times
Reputation: 14470
Quote:
Originally Posted by rantiquity View Post
In the beginning of the war when I was drafted I was in full support of the war, but after seeing the very large number of young Vietnam men walking around and letting US forces do the fighting and dying I stopped my support. And i feel the same today.
With that said no war can be fought with both hands tied behind ones back with no win rules of engagement set by politicians and PCness. Wars, no matter what the reason they are fought has to fought by the generals not by politicians or whiny civilians.
^^^^^^This. Thank LBJ, and McNamara as well as others trying to micro manage a war from the Oval Office.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:29 AM
 
378 posts, read 138,299 times
Reputation: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowGirl View Post
I think there is also a certain amount of collective guilt regarding how the American soldiers were treated once they got back home. I realize this is a somewhat separate issue about whether the war itself was moral or immoral, but some at the time were unable to separate how they felt about the war and how they treated the soldiers and a lot of soldiers - many of whom were drafted rather than volunteered - were ridiculed and worse when they got home. I expect some of that may be seeping into the feelings for the war itself, especially so many years later.

Their were certainly no victory parades awaiting returning American soldiers but much of the "ridicule" is most likely an urban legend. Newspapers of the era almost never mention the spitting myth which has been widely disseminated by right wing sources.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:33 AM
 
Location: San Jose
2,278 posts, read 692,050 times
Reputation: 2364
Quote:
Originally Posted by rantiquity View Post
With that said no war can be fought with both hands tied behind ones back with no win rules of engagement set by politicians and PCness. Wars, no matter what the reason they are fought has to fought by the generals not by politicians or whiny civilians.
We didn't fight the Vietnam War with our hands tied behind our back because of PCness. We limited ourselves in engagements as to not entice China into joining the war, maybe even the Soviet Union as well. Can you imagine how bad it would have been for us if we got locked into a massive land war in Southeast Asia against Vietnam, China and possibly the Soviet Union? The Vietnam War memorial would have needed to be a mile long.
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Old 09-10-2019, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Ohio
20,357 posts, read 14,471,005 times
Reputation: 16529
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis44102 View Post
the death toll is 3,000,000 dead Vietnamese 58,000 Americans.
Actually about 47,000, not 58,000. 11,000 are not combat-related deaths. It breaks down like this:

ACCIDENT 9,107
DECLARED DEAD 1,201
DIED OF WOUNDS 5,299
HOMICIDE 236
ILLNESS 938
KILLED IN ACTION 40,934
PRESUMED DEAD (BODY REMAINS RECOVERED) 32
PRESUMED DEAD (BODY REMAINS NOT RECOVERED) 91
SELF-INFLICTED 382
Total 58,220
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