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Old 09-17-2019, 12:51 PM
 
346 posts, read 236,227 times
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The very concept goes against the very nature of humans. We can't all be "equal", there are lots of smart and lots of stupid people, and the smart ones naturally will gain more, so why did so many in the 20th century actually think the concept of Communism was ever good or could even work? There's a reason every Communist country has ALWAYS been ruled by the worst dictators ever.
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Old 09-17-2019, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,010,222 times
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If you're at the bottom and have zero hope of rising to the top, a doctrine which promises to put everyone in the middle becomes enormously attractive. People embraced the notion of socialism for the same reason that Roman plebeians and slaves were the first to embrace Christianity....the creation of hope where hopelessness existed.

That it was all founded on an ideal which has repeatedly proved to be impractical, wouldn't have been a big consideration for those who believed that they would benefit under socialist government.
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Old 09-17-2019, 02:52 PM
 
18,879 posts, read 27,326,755 times
Reputation: 20218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azureth View Post
The very concept goes against the very nature of humans. We can't all be "equal", there are lots of smart and lots of stupid people, and the smart ones naturally will gain more, so why did so many in the 20th century actually think the concept of Communism was ever good or could even work? There's a reason every Communist country has ALWAYS been ruled by the worst dictators ever.
Or, can we?


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."


You know where that ^^^ came from, right?




You have little idea about what communism is about. There is nothing wrong with its principles.



All have the same rights.
All work and are productive to society.
To each according to his needs and from each according to his capabilities.



What's wrong here? All this bs about women being shared and else, is propaganda and sick fantasy of those, who got their hands on power in country, whose population they hated like nothing else in the world.



What will be the influence of communist society on the family?

It will transform the relations between the sexes into a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene. It can do this since it does away with private property and educates children on a communal basis, and in this way removes the two bases of traditional marriage – the dependence rooted in private property, of the women on the man, and of the children on the parents.
And here is the answer to the outcry of the highly moral philistines against the “community of women”. Community of women is a condition which belongs entirely to bourgeois society and which today finds its complete expression in prostitution. But prostitution is based on private property and falls with it. Thus, communist society, instead of introducing community of women, in fact abolishes it.



What will this new social order have to be like?

Above all, it will have to take the control of industry and of all branches of production out of the hands of mutually competing individuals, and instead institute a system in which all these branches of production are operated by society as a whole – that is, for the common account, according to a common plan, and with the participation of all members of society.
It will, in other words, abolish competition and replace it with association.
Moreover, since the management of industry by individuals necessarily implies private property, and since competition is in reality merely the manner and form in which the control of industry by private property owners expresses itself, it follows that private property cannot be separated from competition and the individual management of industry. Private property must, therefore, be abolished and in its place must come the common utilization of all instruments of production and the distribution of all products according to common agreement – in a word, what is called the communal ownership of goods.
In fact, the abolition of private property is, doubtless, the shortest and most significant way to characterize the revolution in the whole social order which has been made necessary by the development of industry – and for this reason it is rightly advanced by communists as their main demand.


https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...1/prin-com.htm
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Old 09-17-2019, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
5,869 posts, read 4,176,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azureth View Post
The very concept goes against the very nature of humans. We can't all be "equal", there are lots of smart and lots of stupid people, and the smart ones naturally will gain more, so why did so many in the 20th century actually think the concept of Communism was ever good or could even work? There's a reason every Communist country has ALWAYS been ruled by the worst dictators ever.

And here is that reason. The new leaders wrested power from interests who already had organized power bases, and had to be draconian to keep at bay formidable enemies within and without. You couldn't just give them freedom to strengthen the underground and easily overthrow you.

Hitler, Franco, Salazar, The Shah, Marcos, Amin, Park, Mobutu, Batista, Duvalier,were all virulent enemies of Communism
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:48 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
23,129 posts, read 28,858,336 times
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Any time you run across a country that turned to communism, you know first hand that there were some capitalistic excesses going on, and then it came to decision time: Continue on with Poison #1 or turn to Poison #2.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
5,869 posts, read 4,176,425 times
Reputation: 10940
No matter where you start, you will always move down a steady path to oligarchy. The ntervening steps wll be trivial details. Those with a strong thirst for wealth and power will attain it, and the rest will be grateful to them, not to have to concern themselves with the details of state..
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:21 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
26,964 posts, read 13,212,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azureth View Post
The very concept goes against the very nature of humans. We can't all be "equal", there are lots of smart and lots of stupid people, and the smart ones naturally will gain more, so why did so many in the 20th century actually think the concept of Communism was ever good or could even work? There's a reason every Communist country has ALWAYS been ruled by the worst dictators ever.
Communism took it's roots from Marx and Engels, and was a reaction to the extreme levels of poverty and suffering in industrialised England, where the average life expectancy for a male in cities such as Liverpool was 26 years old. Later Authors such as Dickens would highlight poverty and injustice inhis fictional works.

Engels wrote 'The Condition of the Working Class in England' (1845) and he would reguarly meet with Marx, who was living in London and who wrote much of his theory at the British Museum Library in London.

Marx's most famous work 'Das Kapital', was in contrast to classical political economists such as Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill.

Adam Smith, who is often known as the father of capitalism had written 'The Wealth of Nations' (1776).

Later Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky would live in London as would Vietnamese Comminst Leader Ho Chi Minh, and both Marx and Engels died in England, Engels was cremated and his ashes scattered off the South Coast of England, whilst Marx is buried in Highgate Cemetery in London.

It was from these histrical events that the seeds of Communist grew and Communist propoganda grew.

Later George Orwell would critique the Russian Revolution in his book 'Animal Farm' (1945).

Communism in it's true form today is largely seen as a failed ideology, however welfare states, universal healthcare and othe more compassionate policies exist to help the poor in many countries but this is different to workers/state control of the economy as suggested by Marxist Communism.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:49 AM
 
24,526 posts, read 18,059,777 times
Reputation: 40210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azureth View Post
The very concept goes against the very nature of humans. We can't all be "equal", there are lots of smart and lots of stupid people, and the smart ones naturally will gain more, so why did so many in the 20th century actually think the concept of Communism was ever good or could even work? There's a reason every Communist country has ALWAYS been ruled by the worst dictators ever.
Everyone is politically equal in the United States. It’s fundamental in the Constitution. If voters elect representatives who opt for democratic socialism or who opt to nationalize huge economic sectors like healthcare and big Pharma, the rich will suffer. We already have some of it. I don’t drive on private roads where I have to pay the owner a toll. I drive on public roads funded by tax money largely paid by rich people. K-12 public schools. Social Security. Medicaid. Those are collectivist things.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:49 AM
 
Location: annandale, va & slidell, la
9,267 posts, read 5,084,935 times
Reputation: 8471
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Or, can we?


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."


You know where that ^^^ came from, right?




You have little idea about what communism is about. There is nothing wrong with its principles.



All have the same rights.
All work and are productive to society.
To each according to his needs and from each according to his capabilities.



What's wrong here? All this bs about women being shared and else, is propaganda and sick fantasy of those, who got their hands on power in country, whose population they hated like nothing else in the world.



What will be the influence of communist society on the family?

It will transform the relations between the sexes into a purely private matter which concerns only the persons involved and into which society has no occasion to intervene. It can do this since it does away with private property and educates children on a communal basis, and in this way removes the two bases of traditional marriage – the dependence rooted in private property, of the women on the man, and of the children on the parents.
And here is the answer to the outcry of the highly moral philistines against the “community of women”. Community of women is a condition which belongs entirely to bourgeois society and which today finds its complete expression in prostitution. But prostitution is based on private property and falls with it. Thus, communist society, instead of introducing community of women, in fact abolishes it.



What will this new social order have to be like?

Above all, it will have to take the control of industry and of all branches of production out of the hands of mutually competing individuals, and instead institute a system in which all these branches of production are operated by society as a whole – that is, for the common account, according to a common plan, and with the participation of all members of society.
It will, in other words, abolish competition and replace it with association.
Moreover, since the management of industry by individuals necessarily implies private property, and since competition is in reality merely the manner and form in which the control of industry by private property owners expresses itself, it follows that private property cannot be separated from competition and the individual management of industry. Private property must, therefore, be abolished and in its place must come the common utilization of all instruments of production and the distribution of all products according to common agreement – in a word, what is called the communal ownership of goods.
In fact, the abolition of private property is, doubtless, the shortest and most significant way to characterize the revolution in the whole social order which has been made necessary by the development of industry – and for this reason it is rightly advanced by communists as their main demand.


https://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...1/prin-com.htm
Without typing for another 15-minutes, tell us where you stand.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:53 AM
 
1,149 posts, read 1,582,830 times
Reputation: 1398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azureth View Post
The very concept goes against the very nature of humans. We can't all be "equal", there are lots of smart and lots of stupid people, and the smart ones naturally will gain more, so why did so many in the 20th century actually think the concept of Communism was ever good or could even work? There's a reason every Communist country has ALWAYS been ruled by the worst dictators ever.
You're embracing two fallacies here. First, that communism goes against nature. Humans are a communal people. We had to be to survive. Capitalism as we know it didn't fully develop until fairly recently.

Second, you're arguing that the smart people become successful when we have endless evidence that isn't the case. Financial success stems from an ability to manipulate, find opportunity, and ruthlessness, I'd argue. Being smart has little to do with it.

So if your two main premises are flawed you should rethink your conclusion.
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