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No one denies Burisma wanted Hunter Biden for his last name. Or that Hunter Biden's employment history doesn't provide campaign fodder. This even with Ivanka and Jared in the WH.
No one denies either that Zlochevsky was corrupt. But the period covered by the charges against Zlockevsky / Burisma were two years before Hunter took that Board of Director seat. He was neither personally involved nor had any oversight responsibility as a member of the Board.
RudyG doesn't appear to have a conspiracy theory HOW Joe Biden made out. Or I've missed it. Instead there's talk of "crime families" and charges that Joe somehow made millions. The best Rudy and Trump can do is allege Joe Biden corruption in connection with the Shokin firing.
The US Embassy is reported to have been deeply involved in the decision process on Shokin - including the decision to tie his removal to the loan guarantees. The US ambassador who was ousted in May - Marie Yovanovitch - soon testifies to Congress. I don't know if her predecessor - Greg Pyatt - is on the witness list.
Check the timeline of the events yet again please.
Biden's son joined Burisma two months after the Brits opened the investigation.
As for the rest -
I am sitting and listening here something like this ( among a lot of other things coming from Ukraine.)
Sorry for mistakes in translation ( if any) I don't have much time now, so I'll get back to it later..
..So we are talking here about the recent meeting between V.A Zelensky and Donald Trump. [LEFT]On one hand we are pleased that Ukraine is much talked about, on another hand – is it the kind of recognition we were looking for? So talking about impeachment and all… did you have a chance to go through the whole transcript of their conversation?
Well yes… Good evening everyone. All this would be so funny as they say, if it were not so sad. Because I’ve had such a period in my life back in 2017, when my phone was literally red from ringing off the hook because yes, I worked in the ministry of the international affairs back in 2010 and 2013, I dealt with Mr. Manafort personally from time to time, and when the story on him was unfolding in certain direction, only the laziest American journalist wouldn’t call me with all kind of questions, up to “What does Mr. Manafort prefer to drink – tea or coffee?” And now everything is going in the opposite direction; today for example I received the call from the “Washington Times” and Wall Street Journal and god knows who else. Because the boomerang is flying in the opposite direction now. So “Ukraine” today is a key word for American politicians. Even the American rednecks that have no clue where Ukraine is on the world map has heard about it, because.. this is no joke – the impeachment procedure was not in place since the nineties, the Clintons’ times. Even during so-called “Russian interference in the elections” things didn’t come to impeachment. And here – just a telephone conversation and we are talking about the impeachment. The problem of course is much deeper. What we see here, what we are going through is a second part of drama, that started - and here I am going to be very honest – which started with interference of Poroshenko administration into the election process of the United States on Hillary Clinton side. If not for this, if not for Mr. Biden, who… in such obnoxious manner ( I don’t have any other words for it, as the citizen of my country. So if he wouldn’t be bragging in such obnoxious manner that he can remove the Prosecutors general here as he is pleased… Well I am sorry we’ve heard here the transcript of the conversation between Mr. Trump and Mr. Zelensky… You can’t see any blackmailing there. You won’t hear “You do this and I will do that.” Of course you can come up with something far-fetched as “come to the White House” but this would be normal for two presidents who never met yet. Meanwhile Mr. Biden… You don’t need to publish any transcripts here. I’d like to see certain transcripts here – I’d love to see them published. With Mrs. Nuland for example.. One of president Poroshenko’s advisors told me that during some of her conversations with Poroshenko she was treating him as the president of some banana republic. And so on. So all this Democratic camarilla was getting into our affairs with their hands and legs. Mr Biden is telling that he came here 11 times, and during all his visits to Kiev he didn’t notice that his son was involved in business here? Who will believe in that? Imagine for a second that they’ve switched places and our Privat Bank (or any other company that has.. problems, gets Trump’s son – Donald Junior as one of the directors of its board. I imagine that Democrats and all the liberal media would go bezerk, incinerating them. And here Biden is quoting himself … “son of the *****” and states out in the open that he was blackmailing Ukrainian government officials with IMF money. This is a clear fact of interference into internal politics of Ukraine – that’s number one, ( voice from a different participant “The US were guaranting this loan..”
Voloshin “yes, but still – what is this; “I am leaving in 6 hours, you won’t get money... Where do you see anything like this in Trump’s actions?” More than that, I am pleased that... we all know I assume that Vladimir Zelensky is not a pro when it comes to diplomacy, so I am pleased the way Zelensky handled the conversation. If he flatters Trump – so what? When Poroshenko was talking to Trump, he was congratulating him with the victory of his favorite baseball team, and told him what a great leader he is... After that we’ve started buying coal from Pennsylvania for enormous price, we started buying diesel locomotives, and why did it happen? Only to fix the wrong step that Poroshenko, Chalyi and the rest made back in 2016, by getting involved into American election. Today “The Hill” published an article, where they say that the election of 2016 was indirect conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Only Russia was supporting one side, while Ukraine was supporting the other. These explanations don’t make me happy, because I think Russia felt sorry already hundred times, the price they had to pay for all these e-mails and so on, but at least the ambassador Kislyak was not giving personally the directions in his embassy to gather the compromising material on Hillary Clinton, or John Podesta as the chairman of her presidential campaign. But Mr. Chalyi (and it was confirmed by his subordinate Tilizhenko)… I think he needs to be more exposed to the public via media, and he is ready for that.. So he is saying that Mr. Chalyi gave him a command to gather the compromising material on Paul Manafort. More than that, Chalyihimslef confirmed this spring that some Irena Chalupa, the member of the National Democratic convention was asking him to help to gather this compromising material. She is not denying it, but she is saying that “Yes I did it, because I am a Ukrainian, and my heart is aching that Trump will be playing in Moscow’s hands..” but whatever, the fact remains; if anyone wanted the “collusion” - here the collusion for you, collusion between the Democrats and Poroshenko Administration. So now I literally feel sorry for Zelensky, because he inherited the problem, that our previous president created for him. ..
So me being a person who likes Trump and the kind of changes he brings in international politics..
I am glad that Zelensky took such reasonable position, that he gave the correct assessment to the role of ( ambassador) Iovanovich during the election.. Anyone who is involved into diplomatic work is aware that Jovanovich liked Poroshenko and that she was covering him up. And what’s more important – if Americans are such great fighters with corruption, where is a single closed offshore account of Poroshenko? Or of Semerchuk? Where is even the slightest pressure on our officials that keep money abroad? So they were willing to threaten us with IMF loans, but to threaten the offshore accounts to fight this corruption – not a pipsqueak. And so they claim that they wanted “to fight the corruption” by firing Shokin, when they could do it the other way? No, they fired him most likely because he was investigating Burisma, where Biden’s son was sitting on directors board. So this is a clearcut conflict of interests. The man who made his career ( his adviser Larry Silverman was telling me that “my boss Biden made a career on honesty and fight with corruption, human rights.. So where is this honesty, when your own son is making business here, and you pretend that you don’t notice it? I don’t understand it.
[/LEFT]
So yes, If Trump/Guiliani want to find incriminating material on Democrats - they can definitely find it in Ukraine. They are looking in the right direction, and that's what brings such an outcry from the Dem's side I suspect.
Nope, absolutely not. NO ONE should be above the law.
Just to clarify... the President feeling someone is "corrupt" is enough evidence to justify opening an investigation that spans multiple countries, in your eyes?
Trump often either feels or hears from vague, unspecified sources about corruption, but upon investigation, none is found.
From what I've read, there has been no credible allegations of corruption with either Biden or his son. This is just all gaslighting BS.
Check the timeline of the events yet again please.
Biden's son joined Burisma two months after the Brits opened the investigation.
As for the rest - ...
I also need to run ... but the issue is not that Hunter Biden was there during the investigations - on the Board of Burisma. As you point out, clearly not. His presence overlapped in time with the UK and Ukrainian investigations.
It's that what was being investigated occurred two years before Hunter came to Ukraine. Hunter Biden could not have been held responsible either personally or as a member of the Board.
That's from what Lutsenko (then the current Prosecutor General) told a US reporter on camera. No time to find the link ...
Check the timeline of the events yet again please.
Biden's son joined Burisma two months after the Brits opened the investigation.
As for the rest -
I am sitting and listening here something like this ( among a lot of other things coming from Ukraine.)
Sorry for mistakes in translation ( if any) I don't have much time now, so I'll get back to it later..
..So we are talking here about the recent meeting between V.A Zelensky and Donald Trump. [LEFT]On one hand we are pleased that Ukraine is much talked about, on another hand – is it the kind of recognition we were looking for? So talking about impeachment and all… did you have a chance to go through the whole transcript of their conversation?
Well yes… Good evening everyone. All this would be so funny as they say, if it were not so sad. Because I’ve had such a period in my life back in 2017, when my phone was literally red from ringing off the hook because yes, I worked in the ministry of the international affairs back in 2010 and 2013, I dealt with Mr. Manafort personally from time to time, and when the story on him was unfolding in certain direction, only the laziest American journalist wouldn’t call me with all kind of questions, up to “What does Mr. Manafort prefer to drink – tea or coffee?” And now everything is going in the opposite direction; today for example I received the call from the “Washington Times” and Wall Street Journal and god knows who else. Because the boomerang is flying in the opposite direction now. So “Ukraine” today is a key word for American politicians. Even the American rednecks that have no clue where Ukraine is on the world map has heard about it, because.. this is no joke – the impeachment procedure was not in place since the nineties, the Clintons’ times. Even during so-called “Russian interference in the elections” things didn’t come to impeachment. And here – just a telephone conversation and we are talking about the impeachment. The problem of course is much deeper. What we see here, what we are going through is a second part of drama, that started - and here I am going to be very honest – which started with interference of Poroshenko administration into the election process of the United States on Hillary Clinton side. If not for this, if not for Mr. Biden, who… in such obnoxious manner ( I don’t have any other words for it, as the citizen of my country. So if he wouldn’t be bragging in such obnoxious manner that he can remove the Prosecutors general here as he is pleased… Well I am sorry we’ve heard here the transcript of the conversation between Mr. Trump and Mr. Zelensky… You can’t see any blackmailing there. You won’t hear “You do this and I will do that.” Of course you can come up with something far-fetched as “come to the White House” but this would be normal for two presidents who never met yet. Meanwhile Mr. Biden… You don’t need to publish any transcripts here. I’d like to see certain transcripts here – I’d love to see them published. With Mrs. Nuland for example.. One of president Poroshenko’s advisors told me that during some of her conversations with Poroshenko she was treating him as the president of some banana republic. And so on. So all this Democratic camarilla was getting into our affairs with their hands and legs. Mr Biden is telling that he came here 11 times, and during all his visits to Kiev he didn’t notice that his son was involved in business here? Who will believe in that? Imagine for a second that they’ve switched places and our Privat Bank (or any other company that has.. problems, gets Trump’s son – Donald Junior as one of the directors of its board. I imagine that Democrats and all the liberal media would go bezerk, incinerating them. And here Biden is quoting himself … “son of the *****” and states out in the open that he was blackmailing Ukrainian government officials with IMF money. This is a clear fact of interference into internal politics of Ukraine – that’s number one, ( voice from a different participant “The US were guaranting this loan..”
Voloshin “yes, but still – what is this; “I am leaving in 6 hours, you won’t get money... Where do you see anything like this in Trump’s actions?” More than that, I am pleased that... we all know I assume that Vladimir Zelensky is not a pro when it comes to diplomacy, so I am pleased the way Zelensky handled the conversation. If he flatters Trump – so what? When Poroshenko was talking to Trump, he was congratulating him with the victory of his favorite baseball team, and told him what a great leader he is... After that we’ve started buying coal from Pennsylvania for enormous price, we started buying diesel locomotives, and why did it happen? Only to fix the wrong step that Poroshenko, Chalyi and the rest made back in 2016, by getting involved into American election. Today “The Hill” published an article, where they say that the election of 2016 was indirect conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Only Russia was supporting one side, while Ukraine was supporting the other. These explanations don’t make me happy, because I think Russia felt sorry already hundred times, the price they had to pay for all these e-mails and so on, but at least the ambassador Kislyak was not giving personally the directions in his embassy to gather the compromising material on Hillary Clinton, or John Podesta as the chairman of her presidential campaign. But Mr. Chalyi (and it was confirmed by his subordinate Tilizhenko)… I think he needs to be more exposed to the public via media, and he is ready for that.. So he is saying that Mr. Chalyi gave him a command to gather the compromising material on Paul Manafort. More than that, Chalyihimslef confirmed this spring that some Irena Chalupa, the member of the National Democratic convention was asking him to help to gather this compromising material. She is not denying it, but she is saying that “Yes I did it, because I am a Ukrainian, and my heart is aching that Trump will be playing in Moscow’s hands..” but whatever, the fact remains; if anyone wanted the “collusion” - here the collusion for you, collusion between the Democrats and Poroshenko Administration. So now I literally feel sorry for Zelensky, because he inherited the problem, that our previous president created for him. ..
So me being a person who likes Trump and the kind of changes he brings in international politics..
I am glad that Zelensky took such reasonable position, that he gave the correct assessment to the role of ( ambassador) Iovanovich during the election.. Anyone who is involved into diplomatic work is aware that Jovanovich liked Poroshenko and that she was covering him up. And what’s more important – if Americans are such great fighters with corruption, where is a single closed offshore account of Poroshenko? Or of Semerchuk? Where is even the slightest pressure on our officials that keep money abroad? So they were willing to threaten us with IMF loans, but to threaten the offshore accounts to fight this corruption – not a pipsqueak. And so they claim that they wanted “to fight the corruption” by firing Shokin, when they could do it the other way? No, they fired him most likely because he was investigating Burisma, where Biden’s son was sitting on directors board. So this is a clearcut conflict of interests. The man who made his career ( his adviser Larry Silverman was telling me that “my boss Biden made a career on honesty and fight with corruption, human rights.. So where is this honesty, when your own son is making business here, and you pretend that you don’t notice it? I don’t understand it.
[/LEFT]
So yes, If Trump/Guiliani want to find incriminating material on Democrats - they can definitely find it in Ukraine. They are looking in the right direction, and that's what brings such an outcry from the Dem's side I suspect.
As for me - I am just an observer.
Interesting read through the perspectives of others. I'm beginning to think that instead of Hunter Biden making trouble for Joe Biden that it's really the other way around!!! If Joe Biden hadn't come to Kiev on U.S. business, his son would still be happily raking in those Burisma director fees.
You can hear the irritation in Lutsenko's voice in a long interview with the BBC about Joe Biden waving money around and getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired. (He didn't say it quite like that but still.) I can appreciate that: no one wants to be treated like a "banana republic" (Nuland, Biden et al.)
Back on target: from what I can tell no one's come up with an investigative process that threatened Hunter Biden.
Any investigative activities focused on Zlochevsky appear off the mark (Lutsenko's point). He left Burisma before Hunter Biden arrived in May 2014. It's irrelevant if Zlochevsky's activities before May 2014 are being investigated after that date. Not that Shokin was doing any actual investigating.
Other activity focused on Burisma the company. Closed maybe before Joe Biden came to Kiev in December 2015? References are made to the Burisma investigations being closed in 2014 and 2015. A tax evasion case was later closed by Lutsenko, so that might have been active. Or maybe not. Perhaps Lutsenko instituted it post-Shokin. Small fine levied. Hunter Biden not involved.
An investigation that Shokin technically opened was requested by the Ukrainian Parliament and immediately transferred to the Anti-Corruption Bureau. Shokin had no ability to influence it there. It's supposedly closed.
RudyG says he has this Shokin affidavit saying he "planned" more activity and would interview all the Burisma Board of Directors. The date of the affidavit presumably postdates his firing? He appears anxious to be a Giuliani witness. That's hardly persuasive. What he had in his head. No corroborative evidence presumably much less action.
Maybe I've missed something but I get why the WSJ and anyone else who's looked into this says: Nothing There.
Under the terms of a treaty between the U.S. and the Ukraine, signed by Bill Clinton, President Trump was required thereby to pursue the corruption of Joe Biden and his druggie son. MANDATED.
BTW, the fact that Biden is running for his party's nomination, so he can, if he wins, run for political offices, is no shield of immunity.
Ergo, Trump committed NO offense, much less an Impeachable Offense, and, moreover, had he not made the call or similar investigative actions required by the Treaty, that would be an offense, potentially impeachable.
Ooooppps. The DemocRATS are shot down in flames, once again.
Does the treaty specify using the president's personal lawyer to investigate this alleged corruption in a foreign country? Asking for a friend.
When your client has been personally accused of a crime, even before he was sworn into office.
Once in office, he has Qualified Immunity, but a personal attorney is always a good idea, in case that is ever waived
Interesting read through the perspectives of others. I'm beginning to think that instead of Hunter Biden making trouble for Joe Biden that it's really the other way around!!! If Joe Biden hadn't come to Kiev on U.S. business, his son would still be happily raking in those Burisma director fees.
You can hear the irritation in Lutsenko's voice in a long interview with the BBC about Joe Biden waving money around and getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired. (He didn't say it quite like that but still.) I can appreciate that: no one wants to be treated like a "banana republic" (Nuland, Biden et al.)
Back on target: from what I can tell no one's come up with an investigative process that threatened Hunter Biden.
Any investigative activities focused on Zlochevsky appear off the mark (Lutsenko's point). He left Burisma before Hunter Biden arrived in May 2014. It's irrelevant if Zlochevsky's activities before May 2014 are being investigated after that date. Not that Shokin was doing any actual investigating.
Other activity focused on Burisma the company. Closed maybe before Joe Biden came to Kiev in December 2015? References are made to the Burisma investigations being closed in 2014 and 2015. A tax evasion case was later closed by Lutsenko, so that might have been active. Or maybe not. Perhaps Lutsenko instituted it post-Shokin. Small fine levied. Hunter Biden not involved.
An investigation that Shokin technically opened was requested by the Ukrainian Parliament and immediately transferred to the Anti-Corruption Bureau. Shokin had no ability to influence it there. It's supposedly closed.
RudyG says he has this Shokin affidavit saying he "planned" more activity and would interview all the Burisma Board of Directors. The date of the affidavit presumably postdates his firing? He appears anxious to be a Giuliani witness. That's hardly persuasive. What he had in his head. No corroborative evidence presumably much less action.
Maybe I've missed something but I get why the WSJ and anyone else who's looked into this says: Nothing There.
One more time; even when investigation has been closed in Great Britain, it still has been opened in Ukraine ( even if the charges were changed.) Shokin WAS investigating Burisma, when Biden threatened to withhold loans, unless Shokin was fired. Biden's son joined the company that was utterly corrupt, with the utterly corrupt owner ( who didn't go anywhere.)
These are all facts that can't be changed.
As for the "solid" ( according to Joe Biden) prosecutor general who replaced Shokin - here it is;
"A consensus has been forming for months, in both Ukraine and in the U.S. government, that Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuri Lutsenko, who earned the distrust of local anti-corruption activists during his three years in office, lured President Trump's personal lawyer into a rash pursuit of dirt on Democrats that could ultimately bring the American president down."
( Now whether Lutsenko REALLY had some material to provide or not is a whole different story. I am pretty sure that Trump/Giuliani can prevail without his assistance to be honest. They are no fools.)
He seems to be hiding in London now ( as yet another right hand of Poroshenko, former head of the National Bank, Valeria Gontareva, who as well has criminal charges opened against her in Ukraine.)
P.S. And, from what I hear from Voloshin in this video ( he is the MP from the "Opposition Block" in Ukrainian government as I understand) - Trump ( and Giuliani) not only can find all the material on Biden that they are looking for, but on Clinton's collusion with Ukrainian government as well.
If they only find the right people, since Voloshin is even naming names there.
P.S. P.S. Sorry I have to double-check on who Oleg Voloshin really is, and whether he is currently in Ukrainian parliament.)
Last edited by erasure; 10-02-2019 at 09:14 PM..
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