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The old "Surely we can find someone out there who's worse than us and use them as an excuse for our own failures!" ploy...
Sure it's an old ploy.....probably because, up to a point, it makes sense. I may run the four-minute mile. Does the fact that I don't run the THREE minute-mile mean I've "failed" to achieve it? I suppose so. But if the normal person averages the SIX-minute mile, I'm not going to feel like a TOTAL failure.
You can't assign ANY arbitrary value to ANYTHING without some basis for comparison. What's a "good" job...or a "good" neighborhood?...or a "good" car"? Similarly, what's a "good" nation? I don't know, but I know this...nobody ELSE does, either, unless they can let it be known what they're using as a 'yardstick'.
So once more, while FULLY admitting that we have vast room for improvement, I'll say it again...if we're a "bad" nation, or a "mean" nation, tell me please..compared to where? It's an old "ploy" but it's a legitimate question. We have a lot of people still immigrating here....and apparently, as horrible as they find us, somehow things here are better than back home.
Typically, writers such as the OP are complaining that they want to be accepted although what they do is unacceptable. The greatest issue facing our societies are the "accept everyone as they are without expectation of decency in return" fallacies.
While the "touchy-feelies" are often the kinder-gentler attitude, sometimes, we must not tolerate actions by rebellious people only wanting to have things their way.
I don't mean for this to make me sound cruel or harsh, actually I am quite the opposite, I just recognize that certain behaviors by certain societal elements are very derogatory to the whole society.
So once more, while FULLY admitting that we have vast room for improvement, I'll say it again...if we're a "bad" nation, or a "mean" nation, tell me please..compared to where? It's an old "ploy" but it's a legitimate question. We have a lot of people still immigrating here....and apparently, as horrible as they find us, somehow things here are better than back home.
I would join with Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't think we need resort to any other nation at all. All I would ask is that this country live up to the promises it has made to itself...
Typically, writers such as the OP are complaining that they want to be accepted although what they do is unacceptable. The greatest issue facing our societies are the "accept everyone as they are without expectation of decency in return" fallacies.
While the "touchy-feelies" are often the kinder-gentler attitude, sometimes, we must not tolerate actions by rebellious people only wanting to have things their way.
I don't mean for this to make me sound cruel or harsh, actually I am quite the opposite, I just recognize that certain behaviors by certain societal elements are very derogatory to the whole society.
I shall respectfully yet wholeheartedly dissent from your perspective. When you say "unacceptable," you are stating this in reference to whom? To yourself? To your own religious convictions? To society at-large? Where is the inherent fallacy in just accepting everyone as they were created? What is the "norm" that an individual ought to conform to in order to be accepted, and who created these "norms?" Who gave authority to those who created these acceptable criteria for acceptance and why?
Throughout the course of human history society's idea of "normal" has shifted greatly. In Spartan times homosexuality was extremely prevalent. In the 1850s many Southerners thought mandating indentured servitude was the proper way of civilizing the "savages" of Africa. In the 1970s and 1980s much of the American workforce thought that obtaining a college education was "worthless" because the unions would guarantee them excellent wages and benefits at a myriad of manufactures. Look how that flawed ideology turned out. Just because society's mores are shifting to embrace rather than shun we homosexuals doesn't mean that it's wrong. Perhaps people are just finally starting to become "enlightened" that it's not fair to discriminate against people who are different through no fault of their own. If society never adapted to acclimate to changing times, then we would have collapsed by now, would we have not?
I would join with Martin Luther King, Jr. I don't think we need resort to any other nation at all. All I would ask is that this country live up to the promises it has made to itself...
To a great extent, maybe we are.....? Not there yet, but trying. As I recall, Dr. King was pretty big on personal responsibility.....much of which has now been 'soft-pedaled'. Could this have anything to do with our 'falling short' of our ideals? Just wondering.
To a great extent, maybe we are.....? Not there yet, but trying.
Well, there's a lot of trying left to do then, and claims that we're at least better than some other places we could think of sound only like an excuse to walk away from all that. How are we doing these days with respect to gays and atheists and immigrants and Muslims and poor people? The homeless? Those without medical insurance? The outsourced and downsized? The foreclosed upon? Take a gander through these pages. Is there a disadvantaged group that the right-wingers WON'T attack, debase, and seek to marginalize? Maybe Christian missionaries who are held up at an airport in China. That seems to be about it...
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Originally Posted by macmeal
As I recall, Dr. King was pretty big on personal responsibility.....much of which has now been 'soft-pedaled'. Could this have anything to do with our 'falling short' of our ideals? Just wondering.
There's a very big difference between Personal Responsibility® and actual personal responsibility. No one speaks out against the real thing, and precious few fit the fabricated stereotype of those who avoid it. And in the real world of course, personal responsibility includes that for learning about and taking advantage of resources that are available. This is very difficult to do if things have been arranged so as to assure that no such resources are provided. In the larger picture, we can either recognize our failures and problems and seek to address them in a meaningful way, or we can diligently manufacture excuses and fairy tales, leaving the actual problems just to sit and fester. Which would you prefer...
Well, there's a lot of trying left to do then, and claims that we're at least better than some other places we could think of sound only like an excuse to walk away from all that. How are we doing these days with respect to gays and atheists and immigrants and Muslims and poor people? The homeless? Those without medical insurance? The outsourced and downsized? The foreclosed upon? Take a gander through these pages. Is there a disadvantaged group that the right-wingers WON'T attack, debase, and seek to marginalize? Maybe Christian missionaries who are held up at an airport in China. That seems to be about it...
There's a very big difference between Personal Responsibility® and actual personal responsibility. No one speaks out against the real thing, and precious few fit the fabricated stereotype of those who avoid it. And in the real world of course, personal responsibility includes that for learning about and taking advantage of resources that are available. This is very difficult to do if things have been arranged so as to assure that no such resources are provided. In the larger picture, we can either recognize our failures and problems and seek to address them in a meaningful way, or we can diligently manufacture excuses and fairy tales, leaving the actual problems just to sit and fester. Which would you prefer...
Firstly, you've made the same 'quip' several times....I'm not saying "we're at LEAST better than SOME places"....you've read me wrong. What I'm saying is, "we're better than MOST places, many of which have FAR less 'on their plate' than we do....and we're MARKEDLY better than a whole LOT of places. And we may be WORSE than a few places....but maybe they're not trying to 'do' what we're trying to do"...That would be a more accurate way of describing what I'm saying.
No one is saying your points aren't valid. In many ways, they're no different than mine, looked at from the opposite point of view (i.e., "glass half empty/ glass half full")
But I'm looking at the practical effects of the VERY heavy dosage of criticism you are heaping upon us. I happen to be an "older" parent (grandparent, actually) with several Jr High and HS kids in the house. And I've SEEN their homework..and I've followed what they're taught. And I've tried to put myself in THEIR shoes (they are, after all, the Americans who will be "in charge" in just a few short years). And honestly, without exaggeration, the courses THEY are taking, right now, (remember..without any of the historical 'context' that you and I know), pretty much make out America to be just about the WORST, most rapacious, bloodthirsty, dishonest nest of racists that ever set up shop anywhere in the world. There's almost no historical "crime against humanity" or assault upon the environment, or desecration of SOMEONE, that America hasn't been guilty of....and ONLY America, in an otherwise peaceful benign world of "colorful" people, getting along as best they can with their "interesting" cultures, united ONLY in their very well-founded fear and hatred of America. America has apparently NEVER done any "good" thing, anywhere on earth, unless it was somehow looked at as 'profitable". Even when OTHERS around the world "beat up on each other", it's not because they're BAD.....it's because America 'caused' them to do it.
Obviously, as you and others are very eager to point out, there is some element in truth to some of this. My point is, that without perspective, it's meaningless to say so. When this stuff is 'fed' to these young people without being put into context, the net effect begins to resemble something very much like a sort of "chronic depression" of the soul. Americans (themselves), in their young minds, become the world's 'bad guys", and the ONLY bad guys. You and I may debate this...but to a 13-year old, the effect can be devastating...and they don't even see it.
Interstingly enough, these kids' heritage is heavily "native American". And my wife (HEAVILY of that 'group', though she prefers "Indian") is the most upbeat, optimistic person I know. She refuses to go through life feeling 'oppressed'....she has absolutely NO desire to "revert" to the 'old days", and she's made a VERY good life for herself in this 'oppressive, suffocating' nation of "ours", which SHOULD be (but is not) still 'hers". I figure if SHE'S 'OK' with what the 'invaders' have done, it's not up to me to quibble. Does this mean she's "lost her heritage", and is "rootless"? I don't think so at all. In fact, I'd say it's a characteristic VERY much part of the Indian outlook to feel that "life is short, enjoy it to the fullest, and when you're dead, it's over". Such an outlook makes 'wallowing in the past' pretty much a waste of time....and my wife is one of the LEAST 'wallowing' people I know. The past is gone, and everyone in it is dead. What's important is the furure...that's what we can 'do something about'. Wish I had more of her practicality.
Life is ugly. People are capable of extreme cruelty. But life goes on, opportunities arise, and for every "horrible' thing that's happened, a good thing has, as well. You say we're a 'horrible' nation....very well, that's your 'take' on it....and you have reason to think so. In this nation, you're free to feel that way. While acknowledging the truth of much of what you say, I prefer to try to be more optimistic. May you find peace and happiness....somewhere.
Macmeal, your sentiment is more or less "We're not perfect, but we're doing the best we can when benchmarked to other nations." That's what some of us are taking issue with. In your opinion the United States is strides ahead of the rest of the world. I'm inclined to disagree. The United States has to be one of the few literate and industrialized nations that still does not offer equal civil liberties to homosexuals.
The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada, and South Africa all recognize same-sex marriage. Civil unions are recognized in Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, France, Great Britain, Portugal, Andorra, Czech Republic, Hungary, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Slovenia, Switzerland, Croatia, Mexico, and Uruguay. It is currently under positive consideration in many other nations. Why not the United States? You may see us as being "superior," but I still view our nation as being vastly behind the times intellectually if so many other nations around the world are passing us by in terms of social equality.
Now what say you? Are we still "ahead" of the rest of the world, or are we, as I correctly pointed out, the LAGGARDS?
Firstly, you've made the same 'quip' several times....I'm not saying "we're at LEAST better than SOME places"....you've read me wrong. What I'm saying is, "we're better than MOST places, many of which have FAR less 'on their plate' than we do....and we're MARKEDLY better than a whole LOT of places. And we may be WORSE than a few places....but maybe they're not trying to 'do' what we're trying to do"...That would be a more accurate way of describing what I'm saying.
If I am being repetitive, it is only to underscore the notion that veering off into comparitive analysis leads ultimately to argument-from-the-outliers invalidity, and also the point that the relevant guage for our own performance is not the behavior of others, but that set of standards that we have chosen to impose upon ourselves and invited the rest of the world to emulate.
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Originally Posted by macmeal
No one is saying your points aren't valid. In many ways, they're no different than mine, looked at from the opposite point of view (i.e., "glass half empty/ glass half full")
I'd raise the story of the used car salesmen seeking to explain why the vehicle in question has only two tires. Two tires are unquestionably more than none, but the requisite standard here is four, and two are two short of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
But I'm looking at the practical effects of the VERY heavy dosage of criticism you are heaping upon us.
I asked how we were doing these days with respect to a variety of disadvantaged groups, noting the frequency with which many of these groups are patently degraded and routinely dismissed by some of our local right-wing friends. If these questions come across as a VERY heavy dose of criticism, it is perhaps only because they hit home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
I happen to be an "older" parent (grandparent, actually) with several Jr High and HS kids in the house...
I'm in between. Kids gone, grandkids not yet on the scene. Primary involvement with HS kids these days is through a scholarship foundation. Meet and talk with the kids. Read their writing. Observe them in school and school-related settings. The environment here, of course, may be different from there. Here we see many minorities, many immigrants, and many whose parents work directly or indirectly for the government. I must say that I do not at all detect the sense of loathing of country or shame over its history that you report.
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Originally Posted by macmeal
The past is gone, and everyone in it is dead. What's important is the future...that's what we can 'do something about'.
Yes, that's part of the point I'm making. Those who would wash their hands of it all, absolving themselves of a need for any further involvement are not exactly contributing to any sort of better future for any of us. Regardless of one's politics, these past eight years have been a big step backward for a lot of people. This only amplifies the need for our bouncing back as a society and regaining our forward momentum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
Life is ugly. People are capable of extreme cruelty. But life goes on, opportunities arise, and for every "horrible' thing that's happened, a good thing has, as well. You say we're a 'horrible' nation....very well, that's your 'take' on it....
I don't think I've said any such thing. I have said that we remain a long way from where we (according to ourselves) should be, and that the attitudes of some of these environs directly contributes to prospects of that distance failing to become any shorter. The rest, I think, you are projecting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
While acknowledging the truth of much of what you say, I prefer to try to be more optimistic. May you find peace and happiness....somewhere.
My own optimism is tempered by the degree to which malignant agents and attitudes are allowed to permeate society. In historical terms, this is hopefully "just a phase" that we will grow out of. There won't be a whole lot of peace and happiness anywhere until we do.
As long you don't harm anyone, it shouldn't be a problem what ever what race(black, white, asian...), gender (male and female), age (young and old and everything inbetween), sexual orientation (Straight or Gay or any other sexual orientation), Religion (too many to list here), or Culture, or political views, you are.
And people shouldn't be ashame if u belong to any minorities of any group listed up there. Sadly people tend to judge people who aren't like us. The media is doing a hell of a job making people hate one another.
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