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Old 04-30-2008, 07:07 AM
11,943 posts, read 17,446,426 times
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I'm not a libertarian and it is an outdated political ideology, and it has some of its roots in American Individuo-Anarchists, who believed that self-interest should never be restrained by any collective group, in essense, a democracy could never enforce any rule against an individual against their will. I have the feeling alot of extreme libertarians believe in the destruction of the state (privatize the police and army, and what are you left with?), though few will acknowledge this because they do not want to admit they do not really believe in democracy.
Outdated? I has never really been tried, except possibly by Calvin Coolidge.

In any case, Libertarianism has it roots in Adam Smith and David Ricardo and then later in Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. Mostly European in origin, it really has fans only in the US.

We Libertarians certainly do believe in democracy. Democrats want to control your money and the GOP wants to tell you who you can sleep with. I simply want less government- the vital essentials.

That is freedom- a person largely controlling his or her own destiny unencumbered by the thought police, moral majority, bleeding hearts and other charlatans.
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Old 04-30-2008, 07:11 AM
Location: PA
5,560 posts, read 4,964,436 times
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Originally Posted by GregW View Post
It is time to say to our politicians that our liberty is based on:

"We the people..." not "me and my buddies, the people".

I belive individual liberty is enhanced within a socialist economy.

Please explain how individual liberty will benefit the individual in a socialst economy. What do you consider to be a "socialist economy"
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:53 AM
Location: in my imagination
11,368 posts, read 18,561,148 times
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Rape or murder?Being a libertarian doesn't support that.Support Life liberty and pursuit of happiness but as long as it doesn't interfere with someone elses and obviously rape or murder does.

Slow or retarded should be cleansed from society?Who are you to judge what's perfect or not?But here is a example of how Democracy-mob rules can step on people's lives.If it is a popular vote to eliminate certain people in society that is tyranny from the masses against a minority.

Last week at a burger joint I was waiting for lunch,caught up in my mind about money,work and things.A guy who was "slow" just started talking to me being all happy.I said hello back,he said he had the day off and went to the zoo and kept on talking about happy things.

I left feeling happier because he made me realize to stop and smell the roses and that my life ain't that bad even when we get caught up in trivial things.I'm fortunate compared to him that I'm "normal" yet here was this retarded guy who in some ways was better than me on outlook on life.

Who are you or us to go judge who is "right" or "wrong" or not "normal" and where does that stop?Retarded or slow people or any handicapped have a right to live also and many live happy lives all things considered.

BTW I use the term retarded in a medical explaination,not as a slur
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Old 04-30-2008, 01:14 PM
1,572 posts, read 3,678,920 times
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Originally Posted by ViewFromThePeak View Post
By your logic, gays should be executed because a body of individuals could interpret their action as corrupting society. If we were to "cleanse" the planet of their kind, then this panel of people in power might see this as a good utiliarian thing to do.
A key principle of utilitarianism is equality- you can't just arbitrarily say that a group has no interests. A gay person has an intrinsic interest in living, or at least being able to choose to live. Their behavior's "harms", if any, are not outweighed by their desire to live. Therefore, nobody has the right to end their life without their consent.

Deontologists would say pretty much the same thing; the gays have a right to life, being as killing the would involve breaching a categorical imperative to avoid murder for simple distaste.

OTOH, it is only those who believe rational self-interest is inherently ethical that presuppose that people should only think about themselves. Both utilitarianism and deontological ethics recongize that the source of ethical behavior comes from ethical actions towards others, and not ourselves.

Objectivism is a perfect example of rational egoism run amok. No behavior towards other, short of harm, is immoral. Exploitation is inherently good. On the other hand, there are a list of should's and should nots of behavior you should do with our own life, your own body, that would make a deontologist or utilitarian laugh. You have to be a "Man qua man", whatever that means. Aestheticly, they believe only in reflecting the "Greatness", and never depravity- forget Persistance of Memory or The Scream ever being considered beautiful by an Objectivist, no, they know beauty, and it's basicly somewhere between hyperblastic Art Deco and propaganda like "Triumph of the Will", complete with square jawed Aryans with bulging biceps and ripped abs. In personal conduct, you have to excel and do "great" things unencumbered by the little people, or otherwise you are just a parasite living off somebody elses achievements, an untermann. Followers aren't "men", because they don't create and build. It's a rigid system of aesthetic and ethical psuedo-preening, nothing more. Objectivism has nothing good to say about people relegated to scrubbing other peoples crappers and cleaning up their messes, as the video game Bioschock points out- they are demumanized and taken out of the picture, until Atlas shrugs of course and decides to trash the Galt's Gulch miles under water

Euthenization is another good one. How about killing the retarded? They're not doing anyone any good by just existing on this planet not producing anything. Maybe harvest their organs so other more intelligent individuals may have a longer life?
Again, developementally challenged, retarded, people have an interest in living, and a worth to society beyond the money they can produce or their intellectual capacity. Though some might see them as a burden on society, other people might see future potential if society were to invest a small amount of resources towards their benefit. Given that, as you say, this isn't sci-fi, and we cannot know the future, we really don't know the potential value of the disabled. In the same town of Braunau am Inn on the same day in 1989, two infants were born- one was perfectly healthy, the other had Down Syndrome. One baby grew up to be retarded and took care of her mother when she became an invalid, the other grew up to kill millions of people. I know which baby I would deem living a life worthy of life, and which one I would discard.

Last edited by Magnulus; 04-30-2008 at 01:30 PM..
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