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Socialism is when the means of production (factories, farms, etc.) are controlled by the state, and the market is regulated by the state. Not a good thing.
Capitalism is when the means of production (factories, farms, etc.) are controlled by capitalists, and the market is regulated by capitalists. Not really a good thing either.
Both systems are inherently set up so that the few (government bureaucrats in the case of socialism, and capitalists in the case of capitalism) control a society's wealth. Not a good thing, and both are inherently un-American, whose ideals are for the people to control the wealth. And not just a few people. Everyone.
Ok since capitalist are bad and socialism is bad in forms of the government how do you expect the people to control the wealth. Seems the only way control of wealth would be with Govermnet and regulations and income would have to redistributed. That is socialism. Seems to me if we all controlled our own money that is American. I dont seperate business owners from people. Someone running a pizza place on the corner is who employees people should be allowed to keep the profits of running a business. I'm confused why they couldn't.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
Taxes are necessary for a free and just society. We need taxes to pay our police officers, firemen, teachers, etc. No one works for free, and I don't know that any of those people are being overpaid right now.
Companies could not exist without taxes, because companies are a legal organization, and you can't have a legal organization without laws. And you can't have laws without courts and a system of government. And you can't have a government without taxes.
I agree and police officers, fireman and teachers are not paid by the federal government they are pay for with local taxes and that is in the constitution so taxes aren't evil. Yes taxes can be placed on corporations and companies but they must be limited. Laws can be enforced without excessive taxes. I'm not saying corporations or business are paying to little I'm saying it needs to be balanced and not a way for government to promote socialism and more federal programs. Also because we tax corporations they send lobbyist to give them special laws to benefit themselves. So when all this money is in washington you will get corporations and groups running to government looking for things. To much money in washington means it has to much power and to much money.
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
Social security was never intended to be managed government retirement. It was intended to be a safety net for people in need. It was never intended for you to be able to retire to a nice condo in Florida at age 65. That's a misconception.
Yes and that is my point what it was intended to be and what it is usually is the problem with government it turns into that because people become dependant and independant thinkers. The government lied to the people and used that term safety net to sell it. More socialism idealogy.
Now since you think socialism means something else where people in a community all share and have equal property and trade that is mutual socialism. It is a common idealogy among people who agree to this form of society. It is not a forced government regulation and idealogy. Example EU is socialist ideology yet not everyone in that society agrees with socialism. They are forced into socialism because the government is that way. I don't want socialism managed by the government if people want to create communities and practice socialism as a religion go ahead but I wont be a part of it. Most of all I dont want it in my Government.
I confused why you think we have capitalism, in fact if your look at capitalism and socialism you will see we have a mix of government socialist programs and capitalist who explot that system. I want to look for answers outside of government and not with government control. I find that average people even the ceo of a company or the person who is janitor what the same thing. To be left alone from the government and for them to not have government get in the way of personal responisblity. While some in this society want the government to do everything and control everything and those people are the problem. When something goes wrong they look for the government to fix it. When the housing bubble broke and stupid people bought 5 year interest only loans they turn to Government to bail them out. That is socialism and my tax dollars will fund other peoples mistakes. The government shouldn't have the power to "fix" economic problems and choices. If the bank is stupid enough to loan everyone these type of loans the banks should lose money and go out of business that is a free market. If airlines can't provide good service then they go out of business and should not be bailed out. Again more socialism and the Federal Reserve is also a problem with it's international bankers who loan the government all this money the government doesnt have it is irresponsible which is why the constitution doesnt have a Central bank and money should be only gold and silver and paper money must be backed by real items. Also we pay interest on the debt from the federal reserve because it's a BANK not the government. So while the government spends money and the corporations lobby the people are screwed and over taxed to pay for the misplaced power the government has to manage the money I should have in my pocket and not in the bankers pocket.
Last edited by LibertyandJusticeforAll; 05-01-2008 at 08:33 AM..
The rights in the Constitution are for individuals, and We the People. A corporation is not legally protected under the Constitution's Bill of Rights. A business has no "right" to keep all their profit...while an individual has a right to keep their income from labor. Excise and property taxes should be the means for individuals to fund the government services that are necessary (police, fire, roads, etc.). The government should take a look at the consequences of over-taxing corporations and businesses. If a state/municipality overtaxes, chances are that a percentage of the businesses will leave for a more viable location...same thing with the Federal business tax.
The government has no motivation to be efficient or turn a profit. Those mean old greedy capitalists do -- otherwise, they will lose their cushy jobs and be booted out by the shareholders.
Government bureaucrats, on the other hand, are beholden to no one. When is the last time a government agency went out of business? At the end of prohibition, maybe....but that's about it.
I'm not claiming that everyone who works for the government is lazy or incompetent. But some of them are, and they are shielded from the consequences by dint of being part of the ensconced bureaucracy, be it federal, state, county, or local....
Exhibit A: Remember all the blowback from Katrina? I would argue that government, on every level, failed miserably. And who, in a position of responsibility, suffered any consequences? No one that I know of...
The government has no motivation to be efficient or turn a profit. Those mean old greedy capitalists do -- otherwise, they will lose their cushy jobs and be booted out by the shareholders.
Government bureaucrats, on the other hand, are beholden to no one...
Not true. Government "beaurocrats" are accountable to elected officials, who are in turn accountable to voters. If you do not like the government, you can vote for a new one.
My dad works in DC. He knows many government "beaurocrats". Most are very good at their job- the lower level ones that are not political appointees. The ones closely connected with George Bush he believes are mostly idiots (he particularly doesn't like the head of the VA), but the rest are professionals that stay out of politics and do what they think is best... for the country. People don't get into public service to get rich, that's a damn myth.
My father works for the government, he has no incentive to do any better. He won't make more money or get a significant promotion. He meets his audit quota of the day and heads to the beach afterwards...he went into "public service" to get great benefits and a nice pension.
Ok since capitalist are bad and socialism is bad in forms of the government how do you expect the people to control the wealth. Seems the only way control of wealth would be with Govermnet and regulations and income would have to redistributed. That is socialism.
Ugh. Everything except "no more taxes" seems to be "socialism" with you. Yet again: Socialism is when the means of production (factories, farms, industry) are controlled by the State. That's what socialism is. If the government of a democratically elected Republic takes a small fraction of your income via taxes to fund courts, a police force, to pay teachers a living wage, or pave a road, that doesn't mean you're suffering under socialism. It means you're part of a society.
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Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll
Someone running a pizza place on the corner is who employees people should be allowed to keep the profits of running a business. I'm confused why they couldn't.
In your example, the owner of the pizza place should reap the fruits of his labor. Absolutely! But owner of Mr. Pizza didn't get there by himself. He got there because there are courts protecting the legal organization of his business. He got there because teachers educated his employees. And his business is protected by the police force. You think he should get all that for free? I don't. Asking him to give up a small fraction of his earnings to help pay for some of those services is entirely just and fair.
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Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll
Yes taxes can be placed on corporations and companies but they must be limited.
Ah-ha! See, I knew we'd agree on something sooner or later.
Sure there needs to be a limit on taxes. No argument from me there. But "limit" doesn't mean "abolish." That's all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll
I'm saying it needs to be balanced
Again, I very much agree.
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Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll
Also because we tax corporations they send lobbyist to give them special laws to benefit themselves.
And that's wrong. You got no argument from me. What politicians call "lobbying" today, the Founding Fathers called "bribery," and they had laws against it. We ought to follow their example.
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Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll
So when all this money is in washington you will get corporations and groups running to government looking for things. To much money in washington means it has to much power and to much money.
You want to boot all the lobbyists out of Congress? I'll go get my boots on.
Not true. Government "beaurocrats" are accountable to elected officials, who are in turn accountable to voters. If you do not like the government, you can vote for a new one.
My dad works in DC. He knows many government "beaurocrats". Most are very good at their job- the lower level ones that are not political appointees. The ones closely connected with George Bush he believes are mostly idiots (he particularly doesn't like the head of the VA), but the rest are professionals that stay out of politics and do what they think is best... for the country. People don't get into public service to get rich, that's a damn myth.
I'm sure your dad is a conscientious person. But he would be the first to agree that one of the best parts of his job is that the federal bureaucracy is largely beyond the reach of the fickle voters...
My father works for the government, he has no incentive to do any better. He won't make more money or get a significant promotion. He meets his audit quota of the day and heads to the beach afterwards...he went into "public service" to get great benefits and a nice pension.
Not true. Government "beaurocrats" are accountable to elected officials, who are in turn accountable to voters. If you do not like the government, you can vote for a new one.
That is sheer nonsense. Bureacrats, or civil servants as they are commonly known, largely cannot be terminated from their jobs. Therefore they are accountable to no one save for their own snoozing consciences and thus give us all the productivity of snails.
The government changing has no bearing on this. Indeed, that is why they were originally given protection from termination- to prevent cronyism.
Feel free to go to any public reference room to this inaction in action. Bring some bribe money or a pillow.
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Ugh. Everything except "no more taxes" seems to be "socialism" with you. Yet again: Socialism is when the means of production (factories, farms, industry) are controlled by the State. That's what socialism is. If the government of a democratically elected Republic takes a small fraction of your income via taxes to fund courts, a police force, to pay teachers a living wage, or pave a road, that doesn't mean you're suffering under socialism. It means you're part of a society.
