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Old 05-06-2008, 12:04 PM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,439,841 times
Reputation: 1425

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
Not all the Founding Fathers had slaves. Slavery was extremely controversial even back then. Many Revolutionary figures denounced Jefferson's quote of "...all men are created equal" while ignoring the issue of slavery (which he attacked in the first draft) and later mentioned his hypocrisy when he became a slave owner himself.

The history of the American Indian is too complex and spans over 300 years of mistreatment to do it justice or to assign to one period of history. But it is worth noting that disease that was (for most part) unintentionally introduced by the Europeans and not violence that caused most Native American deaths.

It's mentioning that the US has its fair share of blemishes and even outright atrocities that makes people so mad, it is that they are usually taken out of context of the time and act like the US existed in a vacuum. For example, the independence of Haiti probably keep slavery going longer than it otherwise could have, because whenever people mentioned freeing the slaves the opponents could point to Haiti which gained its independence through a number of slave revolts and later resulted in the deaths of many former slaveholders and French colonists. While slavery may be evil, the only real-life example of slaves being freed resulted in large-scale massacres and the country reverting to a backwards agrarian state which it pretty much remains to this day, it's not hard to see how many people who might have been sympathetic to slaves, might be a little more skeptical of the idea freeing them.

If you completely take that out of the context of the time (which people like the previously mention Howard Zinn love to do), you'd think that every who was wary of the idea of freed blacks or blacks with the power to vote was racist just because.
Good points Frank. As my father used to tell me, "A man must be judged in the context of the times in which he lived."

Last edited by laysayfair; 05-06-2008 at 12:04 PM.. Reason: capital

 
Old 05-06-2008, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,362 posts, read 27,494,727 times
Reputation: 6533
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgeet View Post
Bush was receiving all sorts of information from the UN weapons inspectors to CIA reports that said that there were no wmds in Iraq. He also received information that showed that Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11. So don't discredit yourself by repeating the same lies.
The Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, said that Iraq having WMD was a "slam dunk." Other intelligence organizations, such as those from Russia, England, China and the U.N. also made the claim of WMD.

Quote:
Bush planned to attack Saddam long before 9-11
Again, the plan to remove Saddam from power was in effect years before Bush was President.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 01:41 PM
 
8,632 posts, read 9,148,238 times
Reputation: 2403
Well I would describe Liberalism as generally being, big government, higher taxes, smaller military budget, soft on crime, anti gun, pro abortion, pro homosexual, animal rights, enviromental extremism, multi culturalism, pro union, anti capitalist, belief that the government can do most things better than private individuals and companys. So yeah I would say that is very wrong ! In fact I would say that Liberalism is at the root of all things wrong with this Country!!
 
Old 05-06-2008, 01:46 PM
 
Location: SE Alaska
959 posts, read 2,108,597 times
Reputation: 453
"Liberal--someone so open-minded their brains have fallen out."

Now--while I don't paint EVERY liberal this way, it seems to be true much of the time.

"If you're not liberal when you're 18, you have no heart. If you're not conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brains."

--This one really rings true for me. The more you see and experience, the more it should teach you about reality, not what we WISH was reality.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 03:04 PM
 
991 posts, read 1,390,802 times
Reputation: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagz View Post
Why do people hate liberals? Short hate-filled responses full of platitudes and talking points and a clear demonstration that they are afraid to get to the heart of the issue without changing the subject or criticizing the person they are arguing with. Do you see anything positive that would make a person likeable in these posts?

Do you honestly think all conservatives are heartless, shotgun-toting, greedy, rich, war mongering, slave owning, Indian exterminating, Oxy contin addicted idiots? No wonder conservatives find it hard to like you.
You mean 'Short hate-filled responses full of platitudes and talking points' like the one you just posted? I didn't say that all conservatives are this or that. YOU are the one who says stupid things like 'Why do people hate liberals?'. You have a hate problem. If you want to call me a liberal, go ahead. I'm liberal in some areas, conservative in others. But I tell the truth, something you obviously don't want to hear.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 03:25 PM
 
991 posts, read 1,390,802 times
Reputation: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
Not all the Founding Fathers had slaves. Slavery was extremely controversial even back then. Many Revolutionary figures denounced Jefferson's quote of "...all men are created equal" while ignoring the issue of slavery (which he attacked in the first draft) and later mentioned his hypocrisy when he became a slave owner himself.

The history of the American Indian is too complex and spans over 300 years of mistreatment to do it justice or to assign to one period of history. But it is worth noting that disease that was (for most part) unintentionally introduced by the Europeans and not violence that caused most Native American deaths.

It's mentioning that the US has its fair share of blemishes and even outright atrocities that makes people so mad, it is that they are usually taken out of context of the time and act like the US existed in a vacuum. For example, the independence of Haiti probably keep slavery going longer than it otherwise could have, because whenever people mentioned freeing the slaves the opponents could point to Haiti which gained its independence through a number of slave revolts and later resulted in the deaths of many former slaveholders and French colonists. While slavery may be evil, the only real-life example of slaves being freed resulted in large-scale massacres and the country reverting to a backwards agrarian state which it pretty much remains to this day, it's not hard to see how many people who might have been sympathetic to slaves, might be a little more skeptical of the idea freeing them.

If you completely take that out of the context of the time (which people like the previously mention Howard Zinn love to do), you'd think that every who was wary of the idea of freed blacks or blacks with the power to vote was racist just because.
Agreed. Not all of the 'founders' or 'framers' of the Constitution had slaves. I didn't say all, but some did. Twelve owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves as did Franklin, who later freed his slaves and became an abolitionist.
What you imply when you say that in Haiti, ‘the only real-life example of slaves being freed resulted in large-scale massacres’, is ridiculous, namely that slavery is sometimes preferable to freedom. If people are repressed as slaves for centuries, without education or skills training, of course there will be problems in setting up a free state – but it is better for them if they were never enslaved to begin with.
Howard Zinn is a great American, and accomplished a lot for the cause of civil rights movement in this country. Lesser people should not criticize him.
While smallpox and other diseases killed most of the Indians, scores more were slaughtered in the more traditional manner.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 03:30 PM
 
991 posts, read 1,390,802 times
Reputation: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
The Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, said that Iraq having WMD was a "slam dunk." Other intelligence organizations, such as those from Russia, England, China and the U.N. also made the claim of WMD.

Again, the plan to remove Saddam from power was in effect years before Bush was President.
Ha ha. If Tenant brought intelligence that Cheney didn't like, he was told to bring something else. The Niger uranium fraud was so apparent, even Powell turned his nose up at it. Bush didn't like Scott Ritter telling him that there were no wmd, so he sent David Kay - who later told him the same thing.
The plot to rmove Saddam was in place, and the neo-cons pushed it on Clinton, but he held them off. Of course, Bush/Cheney opened the door for them.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Foothills of Colorado
290 posts, read 485,217 times
Reputation: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgeet View Post
You mean 'Short hate-filled responses full of platitudes and talking points' like the one you just posted? I didn't say that all conservatives are this or that. YOU are the one who says stupid things like 'Why do people hate liberals?'. You have a hate problem. If you want to call me a liberal, go ahead. I'm liberal in some areas, conservative in others. But I tell the truth, something you obviously don't want to hear.
Get a grip, You accuse me of having a hate problem because I asked why people hate Liberals? I have news for you. I did not bring up the question. You did. Look at the first paragraph on YOUR original post. I compiled many of your responses and put them on display to show an obvious answer to YOUR question. There was not a single platitude or talking point in my post. It was a simple short answer to YOUR question. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask the question.
 
Old 05-06-2008, 04:56 PM
 
991 posts, read 1,390,802 times
Reputation: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagz View Post
Get a grip, You accuse me of having a hate problem because I asked why people hate Liberals? I have news for you. I did not bring up the question. You did. Look at the first paragraph on YOUR original post. I compiled many of your responses and put them on display to show an obvious answer to YOUR question. There was not a single platitude or talking point in my post. It was a simple short answer to YOUR question. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask the question.
This was my paragraph:
"When you listen you the talk shows like Limbaugh and O'Reilly, and hear them talk about 'THOSE LIBERALS' with such digust and hatred, why exactly do they hate us so much, and is it justified? Liberals aren't child molesters.."

And you just prove my point. Why are people like you and Limbaugh and O'Reailly always spouting HATRED towards some ambiguous group called the 'liberals'? As if you have some sort of understanding of what a liberal is?
 
Old 05-06-2008, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Here
10,864 posts, read 11,904,421 times
Reputation: 5981
Liberals....Neo-cons...it goes both ways. Both are extremes that are pretty damn frightening.
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