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Old 05-04-2008, 09:26 AM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,178,281 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paullySC View Post
liberals = socialist/communist.
An idiotic analogy. Hey conservatives, when you want to spout off against non-conservative ideas, please do some research , so that you may understand what it is you are criticizing.

For example: I am a Socialist. I am not a Communist or a Liberal. What's the difference? I'm not going to waste my time telling you. Do some research!! It's really easy to find out if you truly want to know.
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:01 AM
 
2,078 posts, read 1,850,261 times
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if liberals are communists and socialists than conservatives are fascists
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:20 AM
 
3,703 posts, read 4,275,809 times
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The problem I have with these kind of "What ______ believe" pieces is that they are always vague and "feel good" pieces that attempt appeal to everyone without making a concrete belief or proposal that the writer might have to defend. They are always vaguely in favor of everything good and vaguely against everything bad.

Like saying you believe free speech is alright, even most censorship advocates claim that, but what do you think shouldn't be free speech? You respect individual liberties, but does that extend to people with really stupid believes? Does it extend to people who like to eat a lot of food that's bad for them or smoke like a chimney or drink until their liver resembles a brown soccer ball (or would that violate your concept of public health)? You believe that "We the people" are the governors and not the governed. Fair enough, but what if the people are racists or anti-intellectuals or otherwise illiberal (in every sense of the word), are the people then so great?

Conservatives do it too, when they talk about responsibility and respect for life and so on, they rarely go into specifics. Okay, you believe life should be respected, what do mean by that? I've also heard a lot about responsibility and it seems to mean something different to everyone who mentions it. What do you mean by that and what policies would be enacted by those guidelines?
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Old 05-04-2008, 10:28 AM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,129,200 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Umm.... your professor is either old or forgetful... Liberalism has CHANGED from those principles into something completely different... the Liberalism of TODAY is what we think of Socialism right now... the Liberalism of yesteryears (the ones your professor is talking about) is the Libertarianism of today... so if you are supporting the "liberalism" of today, you are generally opposed to most of those principles you stated above...
Right on the mark! The "Classical Liberalism" of the Founding Father is totally at odds with what is called "liberalism" today. Although many on the left will, typical of the ilk, attempt to confuse others by perverting the evolution of the term.

A great example is what happened when the Soviet Union (inevitably) fell. The liberal media referred to the old style communists as "conservatives" and those who sought free market reform as "liberals." Technically speaking, it was not inaccurate...since conservatives, in a certain context, are those who are opposed to immediate change, and "liberals" favor reform. BUT...it was TOTALLY and intentionally a bunch of misleading BS in real world application. No longer able to ignore that the socialistic paradise had fallen, the NY Time and Washington post, to name a few, seized upon deliberately reversing ideological labels.

And today, notice how liberals often use the label "progressives"? They run from their own nest...as when their policies fail, they have to reinvent themselves under another heading. Conservatives don't do that. Wonder why...?

Anyway, here is a great classic work which TRULY outlines the belief system of the American Left. The guy knows of what he speaks as he was once part of it...

Suicide of the West, by James Burnham
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
13,784 posts, read 23,823,436 times
Reputation: 6195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni View Post
The problem I have with these kind of "What ______ believe" pieces is that they are always vague and "feel good" pieces that attempt appeal to everyone without making a concrete belief or proposal that the writer might have to defend. They are always vaguely in favor of everything good and vaguely against everything bad.

Like saying you believe free speech is alright, even most censorship advocates claim that, but what do you think shouldn't be free speech? You respect individual liberties, but does that extend to people with really stupid believes? Does it extend to people who like to eat a lot of food that's bad for them or smoke like a chimney or drink until their liver resembles a brown soccer ball (or would that violate your concept of public health)? You believe that "We the people" are the governors and not the governed. Fair enough, but what if the people are racists or anti-intellectuals or otherwise illiberal (in every sense of the word), are the people then so great?

Conservatives do it too, when they talk about responsibility and respect for life and so on, they rarely go into specifics. Okay, you believe life should be respected, what do mean by that? I've also heard a lot about responsibility and it seems to mean something different to everyone who mentions it. What do you mean by that and what policies would be enacted by those guidelines?
I think an interesting debate would be to take the ten issues identified as liberal in this article and see if anyone would care to defend the opposite positions. Now that could make an interesting discussion.

Or we can just slap labels on each other...
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:12 PM
 
2,260 posts, read 3,372,440 times
Reputation: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
An idiotic analogy. Hey conservatives, when you want to spout off against non-conservative ideas, please do some research , so that you may understand what it is you are criticizing.

For example: I am a Socialist. I am not a Communist or a Liberal. What's the difference? I'm not going to waste my time telling you. Do some research!! It's really easy to find out if you truly want to know.
Liberals generally believe in socialist and communist ideals.
This thread isn't about you.
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:13 PM
 
2,260 posts, read 3,372,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkm370 View Post
if liberals are communists and socialists than conservatives are fascists
This is correct. This country has always been fascist to an extent.
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:28 PM
 
196 posts, read 170,755 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by paullySC View Post
Liberals generally believe in socialist and communist ideals.
This thread isn't about you.

thats way outta line - "communist"...gimme a real break, I consider myself a liberal ... and while reading this political forum, the communistic approach seems to be when you get in a debate with a conservative, then lookout, you see nothing but criticism and control...if thats not more communistic then I dont know what to call it... lighten up
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:06 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 17,129,200 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
I think an interesting debate would be to take the ten issues identified as liberal in this article and see if anyone would care to defend the opposite positions. Now that could make an interesting discussion.

Or we can just slap labels on each other...
THAT is fair enough. I totally agree. Let the debate begin.

However, lets also agree that the "defense" include the underlying premises that supports the position itself. That is to say, it is not enough to assert that a liberal belief is that, for example, "we" should "take care of the poor".

Rather, that it should be explained exactly who "we" are..and how it is to be done and if it actually works/worked. Even deeper, what is the ethical rationale for robbing Peter to support Paul? Something like that.

As a last aside here...I DO think it is noteworthy that "conservatives" don't change their self-identification labels. Liberals do...

Last edited by TexasReb; 05-04-2008 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 05-04-2008, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Coastal Northeast
16,746 posts, read 23,191,618 times
Reputation: 5852
Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolistraffic View Post
Hm. I, personally, think liberals are just saying they are liberals for the image.

Honestly. For those who donate to Hospitals, Museums - Are they really donating because they like the case? Or, Are they donating because they want their name on it?
I agree.

There are many who call themselves liberals and fail to understand what being liberal actually means - same goes for conservatives. There are so many ignorant people out there when it comes to politics.
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