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Old 05-24-2008, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Assisi, Italy
1,845 posts, read 4,224,462 times
Reputation: 354

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Kev

You are absolutely right! There will be short term pain. The poor will be disproportionately impacted. Oil prices have been kept artificially low for decades. Had oil cost floated up along with inflation the jolt would not be as hard as it is AND we probably would not have everyone BOTH republicans and democrats driving around in SUV's. Moreover, the advances in technology and mass transport would be here now and in use.

By keeping Oil cheap, we have the worst of both worlds. Our economy has raged forward leaving some behind creating an artificial divide. We took our Oil savings and bought these humongous gas hogs, giant houses and are addicted to buying stuff we don't need. We built our homes in suburbs miles away from our work, shopping and entertainment. Now comes the pain.

I don't see any point in the childish finger pointing at politicians. We are all to blame. If anything, the Republicans are to blame for keeping Oil too cheap for too long.

Last edited by Bob The Builder; 05-24-2008 at 12:58 AM..
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Old 05-24-2008, 01:10 AM
 
613 posts, read 1,269,022 times
Reputation: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
All we ever seem to hear on TV is "oh how terrible gas prices are". But when you think about, gas at $4 or more will really be good for America in the long term. Why? Simple- as gas prices rise, good old American innovation takes hold. If they stay high, we will see alternatives coming such as electric, hybrid and even hydrogen cars and we will see good reason to invest in things like high speed electric rail transportation which are really the future. This will, in turn, keep billions and billions of dollars here in America that otherwise would go over to the Arabs which use it in turn to hate us and blow us up whenever they can. I think that most of us are kind of tired of feeding the Arabs all our money.
Will there be short term pain? Yes but we can all lessen our pain now by cutting back on what we buy. I have found that I am saving lots of gas by being more careful about what trips I take (combining trips) and doing other things like walking my ass into a food place instead if idling in the drive thru lane. I also ride the subway a few days a week. Also, I hear people say all the time why they need a huge SUV but almost ALL of them I see have ONE person (the driver) in them. I am actually paying LESS now for gas than I did when it was $3 a gallon! The fact is that our short term pain- which will only last as long as our bad habits (buying a huge SUV and living 50 miles from work) last. Eventually most of us will adjust and the short term pain will become a long term gain as we send less and less money to the Arabs.
i doubt the switch will come anytimes soon, and it will hurt most people more then the high gas prices as the majority of people wont be able to aquire these new types of vehicles and then theyll be plain screwed. we already have all the technology available. weve had all the technology for a while. switching over is the hard part. the pain will be long-term no matter how you look at it. not only will the price of gas go up, but the price for everything aswell. cutting down will be the best solution i agree, but most people are still buying just as much. so of course the prices are still going to go up. they will untill people stop buying as much
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Old 05-24-2008, 01:41 AM
 
8,289 posts, read 13,540,104 times
Reputation: 5018
KevK it's not all a panacea since goods still must be transported mostly on trucks hence the rise in food prices that gets passed unto the consumers. A gallon of milk will be the same price whether you live in carless Manhattan or sprawlsville USA. Cheap oil has faciliated the growth of sprawl now for decades and maybe there are a few dozen places where mass transit is efficient enough but for the vast majority of America that isn't the case.
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Old 05-24-2008, 04:50 AM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,259 posts, read 24,716,372 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiRob View Post
KevK it's not all a panacea since goods still must be transported mostly on trucks hence the rise in food prices that gets passed unto the consumers. A gallon of milk will be the same price whether you live in carless Manhattan or sprawlsville USA. Cheap oil has faciliated the growth of sprawl now for decades and maybe there are a few dozen places where mass transit is efficient enough but for the vast majority of America that isn't the case.
In the futire over the road trucking will be a thing of the past. High speed electric railroads will wisk goods and people across the country at 200 MPH or even more. The truck driver will only pick up the loads at a local terminal and take them to their final destination- probably late at night when there is little other traffic.
Like I said we are in for some short term pain and it is going to be more painful for some than others- particularly people who live far from their jobs or people that drive for a living and cannot pass all the cost on. But in the long run, it is good for the country that we begin to make the changes and develop the cars of tomorrow.
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Old 05-24-2008, 05:18 AM
 
5,004 posts, read 15,328,283 times
Reputation: 2505
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
All we ever seem to hear on TV is "oh how terrible gas prices are". But when you think about, gas at $4 or more will really be good for America in the long term. Why? Simple- as gas prices rise, good old American innovation takes hold. If they stay high, we will see alternatives coming such as electric, hybrid and even hydrogen cars and we will see good reason to invest in things like high speed electric rail transportation which are really the future. This will, in turn, keep billions and billions of dollars here in America that otherwise would go over to the Arabs which use it in turn to hate us and blow us up whenever they can. I think that most of us are kind of tired of feeding the Arabs all our money.
Will there be short term pain? Yes but we can all lessen our pain now by cutting back on what we buy. I have found that I am saving lots of gas by being more careful about what trips I take (combining trips) and doing other things like walking my ass into a food place instead if idling in the drive thru lane. I also ride the subway a few days a week. Also, I hear people say all the time why they need a huge SUV but almost ALL of them I see have ONE person (the driver) in them. I am actually paying LESS now for gas than I did when it was $3 a gallon! The fact is that our short term pain- which will only last as long as our bad habits (buying a huge SUV and living 50 miles from work) last. Eventually most of us will adjust and the short term pain will become a long term gain as we send less and less money to the Arabs.
In the long run I believe you are very correct. I drive less, and we certainly don't go places anymore, but we hope that this will bring a change to America for the better. This morning I saw an ad for synthethic oil, and I thought, "Why not synthetic gas?" but then what harm would it bring to the envirnoment?
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Old 05-24-2008, 06:26 AM
 
11,944 posts, read 14,757,212 times
Reputation: 2772
Whomever up there was silly and thinks repubs decide oil prices-
Since history tends to repeat itself why not flash back to the 70's... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
Only thing repubs might have done is manipulate economic indicators so you remained in stupor. When clinton left office oil was about $30bbl. Bell closed at $138 the other day. The moment that price started going up inflation was happening silently across all sectors. It was only a matter of time before no one could sweep it under a rug anymore.

right now oil is our life blood basis economy. it was designed all around oil, and perpetuating the need for oil.

No, it's not just gas. This affects every sector, and it affects the globe, not just america. It affects every single product derived from petrochemicals and their multifacted uses from medicine to cosmetics to asphalt to plastics. The gears of industry all hinge on oil.

There is no shortage. There is unmitigated greed, and a political yanking of chain. There is also a glaring vulnerability issue of over dependance on outside sources that's gone unchecked since we started on oil (as you are painfully aware of by now).

Kev- unfortunately our resources depleted by paying exhorbitant oil, we will have less available $ to invest in R&D of renewables. Inflation factors are kicking in more dramatically. They should have listened long ago. What's done is done.

Repubs- stop defending oil, and get on the wagon to switch gears permanently. Ethanol cannot be permitted to deplete soil or diminish agricultural purposed production. That was the problem with bush sr&jr plan. Smarter oil companies will diversify into renewables, but know that we'll never be completely off oil.
Dems and greenies need to flex on getting our own oil out of our own ground for the sake of smooth transitions and minimizing external drains of our economy. Alaska your country needs you.
foreign oil accounts for large chunk of trade deficit. I think if dems and repubs pull it together we can make this happen in house. Whatever is potentially locked in patent office books that might constitute suppression of technology- there's no excuse for allowing this to continue. It doesn't belong in the smithsonian museum, it belongs on the road.

Maybe people could recall when gore was up for election and consider his supporters weren't as whack-a-do left wing as you thought.
Maybe being mad at bush will keep us all warm together for years (his strongest environmental contribution?).
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Old 05-24-2008, 06:29 AM
 
358 posts, read 517,834 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
All we ever seem to hear on TV is "oh how terrible gas prices are". But when you think about, gas at $4 or more will really be good for America in the long term. Why? Simple- as gas prices rise, good old American innovation takes hold. If they stay high, we will see alternatives coming such as electric, hybrid and even hydrogen cars and we will see good reason to invest in things like high speed electric rail transportation which are really the future. This will, in turn, keep billions and billions of dollars here in America that otherwise would go over to the Arabs which use it in turn to hate us and blow us up whenever they can. I think that most of us are kind of tired of feeding the Arabs all our money.
Will there be short term pain? Yes but we can all lessen our pain now by cutting back on what we buy. I have found that I am saving lots of gas by being more careful about what trips I take (combining trips) and doing other things like walking my ass into a food place instead if idling in the drive thru lane. I also ride the subway a few days a week. Also, I hear people say all the time why they need a huge SUV but almost ALL of them I see have ONE person (the driver) in them. I am actually paying LESS now for gas than I did when it was $3 a gallon! The fact is that our short term pain- which will only last as long as our bad habits (buying a huge SUV and living 50 miles from work) last. Eventually most of us will adjust and the short term pain will become a long term gain as we send less and less money to the Arabs.


let me know if you still feel this way when you are spending 4 bucks for a can of beans, 7 bucks for a gallon of milk and 5 bucks a loaf of bread.
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Old 05-24-2008, 06:31 AM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,809,642 times
Reputation: 9283
Disasters brings innovation because even the corrupt won't ruin the source of their pocketbooks... that was the only way to get real change in this country... the way the corrupt politicians got so much money was increase in regulations... big government and big business... the market forces are rebelling
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Cold Frozen North
1,928 posts, read 5,158,088 times
Reputation: 1306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder View Post
Kev



I don't see any point in the childish finger pointing at politicians. We are all to blame. If anything, the Republicans are to blame for keeping Oil too cheap for too long.
I thought it is was the Democrats who were responsible for cheap oil; not that I'm complaining however.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:37 AM
 
1,955 posts, read 5,260,726 times
Reputation: 1124
The only thing responsible for cheap oil was a strong dollar and still low demand elsewhere in the world (China, Russia, India). Dollar is reversed and those places are all demanding more oil, so oil is naturally not going to be so cheap.

What's really happening right now is that we're finally paying the piper for years of artificially high demand. For decades now, demand has been ridiculously subsidized in the United States. All those new roads to the McMansion suburbs? Government-sponsored incentive for people to buy more gas to get to those places. The mortgage interest deduction for taxpayers? Government-sponsored incentive for people to trade in their smaller house for a bigger one out in the suburbs. Absence of fuel economy standards for SUVs and light trucks? Government-sponsored incentive for the auto industry not to innovate.

What people don't get is that the whole time, Americans could have been driving all they want without ever being told to conserve, and we wouldn't have this phenomenon. Where we have run into trouble is that the government at all levels has made it cheaper for us to demand even more.
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