SUV drivers should be charged with TREASON!!!! (regular, how much, cost)

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by NWPAguy

58robbo, it's about time that you got some realities straight about America and its differences with Britain.

Britain, as I understand it from the stories my dad relates to me from his family in England and Ireland, is governmentally messed up. Y'all still have a useless monarchy that you refuse to disband... come on, having a Queen and countless Princes is good for press and publicity, but in the end they really don't have any real power anymore... and yet you still support this monarchy through your taxes. You also have socialized medicine, supported through taxes (such as gas taxes)... I don't know that I'd want to be in a country where everyone could go to the doctor for free as soon as they discover a hangnail. That'd make the waiting line longer for people who are truly sick... and that waiting line is long enough in America.

Comparatively speaking, Britain is a small country... with twice the land area of my home state of Pennsylvania, but five times the population. Everything in Britain is packed tighter than it is in Pennsylvania... and it has always been that way. Britain ranks #1 in "number of registered vehicles per 100 miles of motorable road".

Now, I've never been to Britain. I have, however, watched every last Monty Python episode ever recorded. Many of those episodes have scenes where you see the road in some area of Britain... even as far back as the early 1970s, from what I can see, British people drove small cars. This is because gas has ALWAYS been very expensive, comparatively, in Britain.

My family never had an SUV or a truck. We always had a mid-sized car with which to haul the family, and my dad had a compact car he used as his regular runabout. So, bear in mind that I'm not just standing on a soapbox because I drive a Suburban. I don't.

America is a gigantic country, and our tax structure has kept gas comparatively cheap for decades. America was oil-independent until 1950, by which time many cars were on the road. We were already addicted to the car... and specifically, LARGE cars... by 1950. Sure, there were people who couldn't afford more than a VW bug, and those drivers probably had a higher incidence of car accident deaths than drivers of Cadillacs. So, you see, because America is so big, and things are not as tightly packed in America as they are in Britain, people have to drive. Cheap gas lured people away from crime-infested, filthy cities and toward more pleasant suburbs. Who wants to live in a crime-infested, filthy city anyway?

People who drove Suburbans in the late 1990s when gas was 95 cents per gallon were not accused of being guilty of treason. We were awash in cheap gas, probably because OPEC wanted to get us seriously addicted to these huge SUVs and stuff before they restricted supply to run up the price of their oil. Nobody ever complained about SUV drivers as being environmentally or economically poisonous.

All of a sudden, now that the OPEC countries from halfway around the world want to keep their oil expensive, AMERICAN SUV drivers are guilty of treason? I've got news for you... many of them are trying to get rid of their SUVs. If you read our news, you'll see that many car dealerships are no longer accepting large SUVs in trade because they know they won't be able to sell them.

Sometimes I think that Big Oil could give back some of its excessive profit to the American public... but really, they don't have to. Americans are telling Big Oil "we WILL buy your gas for $4/gallon"... so why should Big Oil take pity on us? Believe me, I don't like high gas prices... and I don't own any energy stocks. This is just simple capitalism. The market has said "we will bear this price for gasoline". Big Oil COULD give back some of its profits, but is under no requirement to do so.

OPEC is indeed being greedy. They COULD pump more oil... that is a known fact... they just choose not to. They say the market isn't demanding it... well, that's a load and everyone knows it. They're out there, smugly laughing about how crude oil will "soon be supplied to the market at $200/barrel"... don't tell me they're not to blame. If they opened the taps more, the price of oil would come down and that is a provable fact. Yes, supply and demand drives oil prices. But when supply is kept artificially low, naturally that will make the market price increase.

Our government doesn't tax fuel that much. I hate all taxes, but in the end, we don't have very high fuel taxes. I just want to know that that money is going exactly where it should be going... to maintain and improve federal roads and other infrastructure. People who use the roads should pay for the roads... it's that simple. They won't be built and maintained for free.

The environmentalists are largely to blame as well... Democrats in general hold a lot of blame for lack of American oil exploration. It's a well-known fact that America has very large oil reserves... some people speculate that we have one of the world's absolute largest oil reserves in Alaska... but the environmentalists all scream whenever anyone dares to talk about drilling for oil in Alaska or off of our coasts or whatever. God forbid that some esoteric Arctic seal should be driven to extinction by our drilling for oil... oh no... I'd bet that if you polled 100 average Americans about what they care about more... the Arctic seal population or gas prices... you could count on one hand the number of 'em who would say the Arctic seal population. (And on top of all of this, there's no guarantee that oil drilling would drive species to extinction.) I'd wager that the OPEC blankety-blanks are over there laughing at us because they know they have us by the short hairs... and they find it downright hilarious that we're doing nothing about it. If we drilled for our own oil, we could tell OPEC to shove it. Yet, we don't do that. Instead, we finance both sides of the war on terrorism.

The Chinese and Indians are not to blame for gas prices. America is to blame for that as well. We have shipped millions of our jobs to China and India, we buy all kinds of cheap Chinese-made crap, and then we wonder why it is that these countries are experiencing robust economic growth which enables their citizenry to trade bicycles for cars. The only thing that China and India do which affects the price of gas is they subsidize gas... but in the end, SOMEONE has to pay for it whether it's the government (read: the people, through their taxes) or the people.

Speculators? They can't do much. I used to blame them too, but the truth is that none of them ever take delivery of oil. Any oil they buy, they must eventually sell. You never see a big tank truck pulling up to a Wall Street investment firm, telling the doorman "Here's 1,000 barrels of crude oil, as per your order last month, and we have 99 more of these trucks on the way... where do you want us to put the stuff?". They aren't taking any oil off of the market... they just hold the oil contracts in hopes that they will be more valuable later. If they're not, the investment companies MUST sell them at a loss because they have no desire for real crude oil.

The Feds, and devaluing the dollar? Look, you talk about how sooner or later OPEC is going to realize that it's getting nothing but paper for its oil... well, what the heck do you think your currency is? Is the pound linked to any precious metal or commodity? I agree that our currency is just glorified worthless paper, but I don't think there are many countries anymore (if any) which still have their currencies directly linked to a precious commodity. Chances are, your pound notes (or whatever denominations you have) are glorified worthless paper also.

Yes, some Americans are wasteful. I could be accused of being one. I have a 1976 Ford Thunderbird that I drive when I can... it's a gigantic old lead-sled which gets comparatively poor gas mileage. Do I NEED to be driving that size car, when it's just me and I'm not hauling any people or equipment? That depends. I was in an accident a while back, with a car of similar size. Having been driving that size car saved me from serious injury and the cop said so himself. So, perhaps it's personal injury insurance that I'm buying when I spend an arm and a leg to fill up my big beast of a car. I will trade down for a smaller car when everyone else does. It's easy enough for someone in Britain to buy a small car, because most people drive small cars and therefore you're at a comparatively lower risk of sustaining severe injuries in a two-car accident when you drive a small car in Britain than you are when you drive a small car in America. When everyone else drives a smaller car, I would not be at the same risk of injury if I drove a small car... so at that point, I would get a smaller car. Until then, I only live once... and I will protect my body.

Yes, Americans are addicted to oil and their large cars... and it's going to take a long time for us to get off of that addiction. Many of us are trying... some just don't care, because they can afford it. Such is the way of a capitalist society. I don't think someone needs to be doing a one-person 100-mile daily commute in a Suburban, but if they can afford it and they have reasons for wanting to use a Suburban rather than something else, who are we to tell them they can't?

not sure where the wholesale criticism of britain comes from! thanks for the lecture though.

i have admitted in further posts that my threads was a bit of a rant in response to the high gas price whingers. apologies

like you i am diametrically opposed to socialist anything, healthcare, real estate bailouts, taxes, welfare, bear stearns bailouts etc. but that wasn't the point i was trying to make or the topic of this thread.

the point i was trying to make is that in the west we have to understand what our dependence on foreign oil is doing to our economies! there are many simple alternatives which don't change anyones quality of life(check my earlier post) and can ease the pressure and start to address the already massive trade deficit

regarding blaming environmentalists. you mentioned that we were energy independent until 1950. what happened then? hubbert was right then! so your answer is to go to alaska and drill. 10 years later we'll be back here having the same argument. only then all the alaskan field will be dry and the saudis will still have hold of our short and curly's!

as for opec. many of these countries have growing populations dependent on oil to survive! it seems only reasonable that they withhold some of their wealth for future generations. that is ofcourse, if you believe they are holding back! ghawar, saudis biggest field and responsible for 5m barrels a day is showing signs of maturity and that is not the only story of its kind! it would also be worthwhile to maybe consider how they have seen the value of their vast dollar reserves go down the pipe.

big oil is business. i have no objection to big oil profiteering. just take away their subsidies. i also got no problem with speculators. as long as they don't run to congress or the fed looking for bailouts when the wind changes.

we live in different times now. 20 years ago the saudis had to sell to us. nobody else was buying enough. that has changed. the chinese and the indians can now afford cars. 20 years ago when the saudis needed anything tech, medical, engineered etc they had to come to us. that too has changed.

so i just wanted to point out how overconsumption of oil is crippling us

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by Roaddog

As fas as I'm concerned people can drive what they want, if they can afford it then all the power to them, blaming people who drive SUVs for high gas prices and global warming is rediculous.

i'm not blaming anyone for global warming and i don't think suv drivers are to blame for high gas prices. where did you get that from?

i am saying that most of our oil comes from outside our country and the more gas we waste the more money we are sending out of our country, often to nations who don't like us too much!

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by mommabear2

Oh, your statements are a tad bit melodramatic, no?

I've never owned an SUV - although I've been tempted. We have a different car culture here. It's not like Europe with their little fast cars - Europe has had high gas prices for many years now, so they are naturally inclined to stay away from big SUVs. We've had the luxury of low gas prices so it's literally allowed people to not take day-to-day cost into consideration. Now that gas is $4/gallon... you'll see those "traitors" as you call them switch to gas sippers....

was in a melodramtic mood!

[JFRRACING]

Originally Posted by Roaddog

As fas as I'm concerned people can drive what they want, if they can afford it then all the power to them, blaming people who drive SUVs for high gas prices and global warming is rediculous.

this is very true. look at all the people that have big rv's or rv buses, look at all the fuel they use when they drive all over the country . they use a hell of alot more fuel than a whole lot of suv's put together. so you can't blame suv's for that. i think were all to blame, no one is inaccent. any one that drive or rides anything that uses gas or diesel is guilty. to much finger pointing doesn't solve anything.

[58robbo]

Originally Posted by JFRRACING

this is very true. look at all the people that have big rv's or rv buses, look at all the fuel they use when they drive all over the country . they use a hell of alot more fuel than a whole lot of suv's put together. so you can't blame suv's for that. i think were all to blame, no one is inaccent. any one that drive or rides anything that uses gas or diesel is guilty. to much finger pointing doesn't solve anything.

agreed, but people must be made aware of how their excessive consumption is hurting their own economy

[ArizonaBear]

This I will say:

Yes; I own a 10 MPG fullsized SUV

That stated: my commute is 10 miles round trip to work and I paid the princely sum of $1,500 of the thing---------which is still much, much cheaper per mile driven than buying something like a Toyota Prius factoring in car payments for 4 years.

[JFRRACING]

Originally Posted by 58robbo

agreed, but people must be made aware of how their excessive consumption is hurting their own economy

THE SAD THING IS THAT PEOPLE have been aware of this since the gas crunch back in the 70's. not much has been done since then. some of the gas hogs now get just as bad of gas mileage now as they did back then. so we haven't changed are ways a whole lot. i think there are just alot more drivers on the road now.

[k350]

Considering a cargo ship uses 10 tons of fuel an hour, I think anything a person buys that is imported contributes to fuel consumption.

SUVs? Give me a break, if everyone stopped driving SUVs that would still be a drop in the bucket as far as fuel consumption is concerned.

I have an SUV that is paid for which I bought for work reasons, I stopped work but what, I am suppose to trade it in on to make myself have payments? my SUV gets 16/21mpg, not good, not bad but not bad enough to warrant going into debt by getting another car.

Yes, you see people going to get groceries in them, what, is it enviromentally better for everyone to have a bunch of cars for different purposes? financially feasable? Sure someone may drive their SUV to the food store, but they also use that SUV for everything they do from vacations, to towing, to whatever....point is the great thing about owning an SUV is the fact it can do many things where a car can basically do one.

You ever see how much fuel something simple as a boiler uses? And you are worried about SUVs?

The bottom line of everything is there is a limited number of resources and too many people in the world trying to get it, how about starting first with some population control everywhere instead of having people pump out kids left and right all the time.

[Katie1]

Gee I have a friend that was born & raised in England...2 years ago she purchased the biggest uglist vehicle there is... Maybe we should ship her back to Englind & tiny island with its tiny cars!!! Shes waisting our American gas!!!

[JFRRACING]

Come on now!!! finger pointing is not the answer. suv's aren't even 1/2 the problem. like i said before we all contribute to the problem no matter what you drive.