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Old 08-11-2022, 08:50 PM
 
28,624 posts, read 18,677,825 times
Reputation: 30904

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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
There are certainly plenty of things such as redlining and blockbusting, which still have lingering effects. It's not legal to do those things today. However, they had their effects. I have to wonder if CRT has any solutions for how to deal with its lingering effects.

I also think about this. Someone posted on Facebook that some people fear CRT because people who did bad things back in the 50s and 60s would see themselves exposed for it today. I'm only now starting to look into it. However, there is something I've thought about. Some people merely pass their own prejudice down to their children, albeit in a more covert way.
There is a substantial difference that younger people today can't perceive at the gut level. It's hard for you to perceive how absolute segregation was back then. You talk about the importance, for instance, of reputation in the media. But you didn't grow in the time that there were virtually no black people represented in the media.

There were no African-Americans in children's television programming, for instance, until I was in high school. There were no African-Americans in prime-time drama programming, until 1963. There was one in 1963 for a season, then one in 1965, and only one until 1966.

Check out old television series on YouTube. There were no black people on The Jetsons or The Flintstones. None in Bewitched or My Three Sons.

There were no black people as extras, none in the backgrounds, none in commercials, except for a few as servants or entertainers. If you were black Boomer kid, you didn't see yourself represented on television until you were in middle or high school.

Because of segregation, I had never met a white person until I was in middle school (I was a mid-Boomer, so integration rolled through in 1966). Until then, I'd never been in the same movie theater with a white kid. I'd never been in the same swimming pool with a white kid. I'd never been on the same playground with a white kid. I only saw white people when my mother took me downtown, which was rarely. Our school teachers were black. Our neighborhood retail merchants were black. I literally had never known the name of a single white person until I was in middle school.

But I remember one time in 1959 when my mother took me to town for the county parade. When the high school marching band went by, I strained to see my youngest aunt, who I knew played clarinet, but I didn't see her. I asked my mother, "Where is Aunt Faith?" My mother told me, "We can't be in their parade."

At the time, I hadn't yet clued in to how segregation worked; I hadn't picked up that everyone in the parade was white. Understand that in my experience with the "outside" world, "white" was the default because white was all we were ever shown.

And if that was true for me, it was ten times more true for the white kids, because they certainly never had a reason or opportunity to come to the black part of town.

Segregation was inculcated into Boomers as children as the normal state of society. Even if our War Gen parents didn't explicitly teach it to us, all of society around us reflected it and enforced it. And to be honest, it still lies within our psyches as the social norm..that deep sense that there places black people should be and places black people should not be. That was the social zeitgeist. Some Boomers have taken the deliberate effort to bury it...most have not gone through that effort.

But that is not the same planet you grew up in. White or black, even if your own neighborhood was mono-racial, you saw black people on television doing everything white people do. You saw black doctors, black cops, black lawyers, black people in the background, black people buying retail goods, black kids in cartoons. You had white people in your schools, you went to restaurants where there were white people. You were never inculcated by society that there were places black people should not be.

If young white people in your generation were individually taught segregation should be the norm by their parents, it was not reinforced by the society you grew up in.

 
Old 08-12-2022, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Lahaina, Hi.
6,386 posts, read 4,793,920 times
Reputation: 11316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
I am constantly amazed at some of the content this site allows to proliferate. It's not like these posters (and bots, I think some are bots) are being subtle about it.
The forum would be so much more interesting if everyone was in full agreement.

It would be like preaching to the choir.

We could all respond to every post with "amen".
 
Old 08-12-2022, 11:25 AM
 
216 posts, read 66,777 times
Reputation: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Being a minority, being Black American in particular, there are certain things I have to consider when living somewhere. For starters, I'm not going to move somewhere without a job lined up. Another matter is how I will be perceived by the locals. I have to think about this because how I'm treated could be a factor in me deciding to be part of that community. I don't want to go somewhere, and then find that the locals don't want me there. That is really something I have to consider. For me this isn't some "woke" concept. This is about stuff I've dealt with and making sure I know what I'm getting into.
As a white man I don't want to live somewhere where I'll be denied employment or promotion because somebody wants to hire a less qualified woman or non-white person and call it "diversity and inclusion" or "affirmative action" to make it sound like they are doing society a favor when in reality they're just practicing discrimination.

Last edited by The Philosopher; 08-12-2022 at 12:25 PM..
 
Old 08-12-2022, 12:01 PM
 
9,229 posts, read 8,520,053 times
Reputation: 14765
Quote:
Originally Posted by arr430 View Post
These two concepts seem to be at odds. First, striving for a goal of a nation in which all communities have good representation of all identifiable minorities, such as Muslim, LGBTQ, mixed-race couples, etc.. But then, members of those same minorities are asking in a relocation forum, where can they settle in communities friendly to their particular persuasion.


How can it be both? (Please don't answer if all you want to do is cut-paste your usual mindless political-labeled bashing. There is no agenda here -- just wondering if anybody has any thoughtful ideas of how these two trends might play out.)
It is a good question, and I think the two are not mutually exclusive. The goal isn't to absorb other cultures so we all want and enjoy the same things, but to ACCEPT our differences and give others the same freedoms to choose as whites have enjoyed all along.

For example. We have a number of hispanics who moved into the house on the corner across the street from us (in the suburbs). Most of the families on this block are rarely seen. The kids go to school. The adults go to work. Evenings and weekends we are indoors or in our backyards. One cannot generally hear passersby.

On the corner, they too get up and go to work or school, but they are more exuberant in their conversations coming and going. Nights and weekends they have lots of friends over and the front and back yards are full of activity and celebration. It took getting used to, but since we all seem to accept it, it's sort of nice to hear laughter and happy voices.
 
Old 08-12-2022, 06:46 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Philosopher View Post
As a white man I don't want to live somewhere where I'll be denied employment or promotion because somebody wants to hire a less qualified woman or non-white person and call it "diversity and inclusion" or "affirmative action" to make it sound like they are doing society a favor when in reality they're just practicing discrimination.
Well, I don't like being judged according to the worst of my ethnicity. I don't want to live someplace where I might get treated horribly, which has happened to me. And I've likely dealt with my share on job discrimination. I was one of 2 Black people in my major. It was pretty much mostly Whites that were part of my life cohort. We all had a the same degree. Me and the other Black guy were the last of our graduating class to get jobs. Everyone else got jobs literally within 2 months. It took me and the other guy over a year. Not even any connections I had did any good. I have work in my field. However, I had to fight for what I have.
 
Old 08-12-2022, 07:26 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
There is a substantial difference that younger people today can't perceive at the gut level. It's hard for you to perceive how absolute segregation was back then. You talk about the importance, for instance, of reputation in the media. But you didn't grow in the time that there were virtually no black people represented in the media.

There were no African-Americans in children's television programming, for instance, until I was in high school. There were no African-Americans in prime-time drama programming, until 1963. There was one in 1963 for a season, then one in 1965, and only one until 1966.

Check out old television series on YouTube. There were no black people on The Jetsons or The Flintstones. None in Bewitched or My Three Sons.

There were no black people as extras, none in the backgrounds, none in commercials, except for a few as servants or entertainers. If you were black Boomer kid, you didn't see yourself represented on television until you were in middle or high school.

Because of segregation, I had never met a white person until I was in middle school (I was a mid-Boomer, so integration rolled through in 1966). Until then, I'd never been in the same movie theater with a white kid. I'd never been in the same swimming pool with a white kid. I'd never been on the same playground with a white kid. I only saw white people when my mother took me downtown, which was rarely. Our school teachers were black. Our neighborhood retail merchants were black. I literally had never known the name of a single white person until I was in middle school.

But I remember one time in 1959 when my mother took me to town for the county parade. When the high school marching band went by, I strained to see my youngest aunt, who I knew played clarinet, but I didn't see her. I asked my mother, "Where is Aunt Faith?" My mother told me, "We can't be in their parade."

At the time, I hadn't yet clued in to how segregation worked; I hadn't picked up that everyone in the parade was white. Understand that in my experience with the "outside" world, "white" was the default because white was all we were ever shown.

And if that was true for me, it was ten times more true for the white kids, because they certainly never had a reason or opportunity to come to the black part of town.

Segregation was inculcated into Boomers as children as the normal state of society. Even if our War Gen parents didn't explicitly teach it to us, all of society around us reflected it and enforced it. And to be honest, it still lies within our psyches as the social norm..that deep sense that there places black people should be and places black people should not be. That was the social zeitgeist. Some Boomers have taken the deliberate effort to bury it...most have not gone through that effort.

But that is not the same planet you grew up in. White or black, even if your own neighborhood was mono-racial, you saw black people on television doing everything white people do. You saw black doctors, black cops, black lawyers, black people in the background, black people buying retail goods, black kids in cartoons. You had white people in your schools, you went to restaurants where there were white people. You were never inculcated by society that there were places black people should not be.

If young white people in your generation were individually taught segregation should be the norm by their parents, it was not reinforced by the society you grew up in.
I don't disagree with you that there is a big difference between what you experienced and what I've experienced. I never went through the total segregation that you went through. It was never explicitly inculcated into me that as a Black person, I should "know my place".

One point I wanted to drive home was this. You were literally told "this is the White side, this is the Black side. You cross over, you'll get killed". You know what was up immediately. My generation wasn't told any of that explicitly. I did grow up seeing positive images of Black people on television. Family Matters, The Cosby Show, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. I could relate to those shows. On the flip side, I understand thuggery sells, big time. We still have issues that CRT isn't capable of solving. I'll get back to this later.

I think about you looking for your aunt in the marching band. My younger sister was in marching band. The high school she went to was about 75% White. Most of the people in marching band were White. I never was in marching band. However, I think about some of the kids who treated me the best during high school. Many of them were in marching band.

My generation (and my sister's generation) never went though segregation. Jim Crow is over. It's been over for decades. At the same time, there are other problems. Job discrimination still exists. It's not like "sorry, we don't hire Blacks". Rather, it's more covert and harder to detect. In theory, pretty much any job is open to me. And in practice, it isn't like there aren't Black people working in engineering, law, education, and other fields. Black people are entering fields that a few generations ago, many Blacks couldn't imagine entering. Ron McNair went from dealing with segregated libraries in the South to becoming an astronaut. Myself, I never questioned "can a Black man do that". I just assumed I could if I wanted to. However, there are plenty of cases where I wonder how much discrimination could be going on.

LEGAL segregation is not being taught as the norm. It is accepted that Jim Crow is dead and gone. Some people (including those who never lived under it) might wish it existed. However, it's dead and gone, and many people have learned to accept that. What I think is going on is more passive-aggressive stuff. While Black pepple becoming police officers is the norm, there are also some insidious issues. I think part of the police brutality issue is that the wrong kind of people are joining police forces. We have individuals who view policing as "keep the Black people under control" or "Black people are the enemy". I think some of the stuff my generation is seeing takes on more passive-aggressive forms, at least compared to the 1950s.
 
Old 08-12-2022, 07:42 PM
 
28,624 posts, read 18,677,825 times
Reputation: 30904
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I think some of the stuff my generation is seeing takes on more passive-aggressive forms, at least compared to the 1950s.
In a way, racists today are about at the level of liberals in the 1950s.

That's why racists today can like Star Trek: The Original Series and quote Martin Luther King.
 
Old 08-12-2022, 07:44 PM
 
Location: New York Area
34,750 posts, read 16,767,477 times
Reputation: 29888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
In a way, racists today are about at the level of liberals in the 1950s.

That's why racists today can like Star Trek: The Original Series and quote Martin Luther King.
So, the people that ended segregation would now be racists?
 
Old 08-12-2022, 07:49 PM
 
28,624 posts, read 18,677,825 times
Reputation: 30904
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
So, the people that ended segregation would now be racists?
So the people who are racists today have accepted about as much as liberals in the 50s were working to achieve at the time.

Notice how I persist in saying what I'm saying rather than saying what you're saying?
 
Old 08-12-2022, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Retired in VT; previously MD & NJ
14,267 posts, read 6,916,557 times
Reputation: 17873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Mostly due to an illegal invasion of which you don't care about because you don't think it impacts you or your race and to hell with the negative impact it has on the rest of us and our immigration laws, I guess. You are wrong though illegal immigration has a negative impact on all of us. Your clue is "use" to be a part of Mexico but no longer is so it's irrelevant.
Who said anything about illegal immigration? South Texas was once part of Mexico, therefore one would expect to find a large Hispanic and indigenous population there. They have always been there, regardless of where the country border was at any given time.
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