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Old 05-28-2008, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania USA
2,308 posts, read 2,586,593 times
Reputation: 369

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Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
Reference: The self locking F-22 article from robert bryce
"Last week, Lockheed Martin announced that its profits were up a hefty 60 percent in the first quarter. The company earned $591 million in profit on revenues of $9.2 billion. Now, if the company could just figure out how to put a door handle on its new $361 million F-22 fighter, its prospects would really soar. "

This is referencing an incident at langley AFB 10apr08 captain brad spears was locked in cockpit for 5 hrs. Fire dept had to rescue him with a chain saw. Damage according to pentagon 1.28 million. Total price tag for 181 of same craft is $65.4 billion.

It's stuff like this makes ordinary people not think investment in military is sound (and right now it isn't because of how it's spent). Stuff like high tech space pens when low tech pencils would have sufficed.
Seems to me vets should be in charge of the military budget, because they know first hand what's real and what is completely FOS.
I read the story that you referred to, unbelievable! The amount of waste, greed and theft in the military budget is staggering!
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Old 05-28-2008, 07:44 PM
 
48,502 posts, read 96,833,505 times
Reputation: 18304
The AK47 was a good weapon for its day but it is recoil operated. The newest weapons are gas operated like the M16 . The M16 and its variance are a much different weapon than the kennedy whiz kids forced on the military that we used in vietnam. The newest weapons are designed to place three rounds without getting off target from recoil.The M14 was a good single fire weapon but many troops that were not familar with weapons didn't shoot well with it and it was useless in auto fire or multiple fire.Frankly when I scored many troops even with the M16 they wre terrible.The M14 was even worse as many were afraid of the recoil in firing 75 rounds. Personally I think the new troops are much better trained than the rush job they did when I was in the army during the vietnam era.But then that was pretty much the conclusion of the mititary after vietnam; so the professional army is born.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:35 PM
 
11,944 posts, read 14,779,453 times
Reputation: 2772
I had never fired a weapon at all before bootcamp- m-16 and 9mm I got sharpshooter, 45 I missed by a nose. Shotgun- no way jose. Contrary mission I had in coast guard to both knock them down, and save them, I developed other skills more suitable for my job. The nature of having to smile at people within 10ft who might or might not mean to kill you.
Doesn't help when navy is shootin at your tail though! hahahaha
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:57 PM
 
Location: In a house
5,232 posts, read 8,412,560 times
Reputation: 2583
AK47's are gas operated though a much simpler design than an M16 type action.

I think alot of the armor talk is just propaganda. How much do we want to weigh these guys down with? I'v talked to several guys back from the desert that said they wouldn't wear it anyway in 120 plus degree heat. We have without a doubt the best equipped army in the world. People get killed in wars, period.
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Old 05-29-2008, 05:37 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,768,722 times
Reputation: 24863
If you think an M-14 kicks try an 8 mm Mauser bolt action. I thought I would need a shoulder replacement after five rounds. OMG that thing bucks. So does a 12 ga with 1 oz slugs. Ouch!

Big slow bullets for short range and big fast bullets for long range. IMHO better training with better sights and a lot more practice leads to better shooting and would be far more efective than fancier guns.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:05 AM
 
Location: in my imagination
13,610 posts, read 21,389,656 times
Reputation: 10108
If we go to war with Russia or China who have Ak series rifles we would have a tougher fight because they are trained better than a insurgent who just points his rifle in a general direction and hopes he hits something.

Give the terrorists/insurgents M16's and we use the same even though both sides would be equiped the same we would win because we are trained better and use better tactics (in conventional battles).


That's why American forces don't use full auto fire with rifles except for supression fire or being overun because 1 or 2 placed semi auto rounds with do the job (usually)


I went to a machinegun shoot a while ago with everykind of full auto weapon you can think of.It was cool,but as I was watching these guys miss the targets out of 20 rouinds maybe 5 or 6 hit it made me realize that my semi auto AR and AK will do the same as a full auto.

Americans have good equipment maybe not always the best but we are trained second to none.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Fly-over country.
1,763 posts, read 7,333,588 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If we go to war with Russia or China who have Ak series rifles we would have a tougher fight because they are trained better than a insurgent who just points his rifle in a general direction and hopes he hits something.
I'll disagree. They aren't trained much better, and have far less motivation to fight, at least for now.

Some will agree that if we spend to much time and money to re-design for COIN, we won't be able to fight conventional.

Others will argue that there's no need for the conventional (other than sea and air power) so we need to refit everything for COIN.

I think the key to the weapon problem and the COIN v. conventional problem is simple, but hard to sell. Continue to grow the end-cap of the Army and Marines, finish your roles and missions review, keep the units modular (like lego blocks that can be used alone or stacked together) and train/equip for both types of warfare. Problem is, you've got to have buy in from the citizens (and politicos), and I think they're a bit tired of all this warfare, even though they're increasingly disconnected from it.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:36 AM
 
Location: in my imagination
13,610 posts, read 21,389,656 times
Reputation: 10108
Quote:
Originally Posted by caution View Post
I'll disagree. They aren't trained much better, and have far less motivation to fight, at least for now.

Some will agree that if we spend to much time and money to re-design for COIN, we won't be able to fight conventional.

Others will argue that there's no need for the conventional (other than sea and air power) so we need to refit everything for COIN.

I think the key to the weapon problem and the COIN v. conventional problem is simple, but hard to sell. Continue to grow the end-cap of the Army and Marines, finish your roles and missions review, keep the units modular (like lego blocks that can be used alone or stacked together) and train/equip for both types of warfare. Problem is, you've got to have buy in from the citizens (and politicos), and I think they're a bit tired of all this warfare, even though they're increasingly disconnected from it.
well hopefully we never have to find out.But China or Russia may not be as trained as good as us,but they certainly are trained better than most 3rd world countries we have engaged in with lately.I'll post some vid latter that shows indeed some Russian units receive drilled weapons training don't underestimate them all.Now their tactics may be different.

But depending on the MOS,some of our military folk don't recieve much weapon training either other than basic.I have known a couple ex guys,some were real good and some couldn't hit the broad side of a barn but those guys MOS wasn't direct combat orientated though that required range and training pass basic training.

The Marines probably have the best rifle training of all,because no matter if they are to be a pilot,pencil pusher or whatever for a MOS, marksmanship is pushed on them all before hand.
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