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Actually, the right, IMO, prefers that states control their own roads. Business would bear the cost of roads to facilitate commerce and interstate roads would be developed by states involved. Believe it or not, this was going on for centuries prior to the socialist movement.
Apparently this didn't much impress the framers of the Constitution who, wishing to support the public good through the establishment and operation of an efficient postal service, gave Congress the power to establish national roads.
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Originally Posted by One Thousand
How the left convinces themselves that adding a layer of unnecessary beauracracy to decision making makes the country more efficient always makes me wonder...
While others puzzle at how the right can conclude from among the economic rubble that regimes of public oversight and regulation constitute "unnecessary" layers of bureaucracy.
Apparently this didn't much impress the framers of the Constitution who, wishing to support the public good through the establishment and operation of an efficient postal service, gave Congress the power to establish national roads.
Dont think anyone complains about national roads, but national roads do not consist of back alley streets in the middle of Utah, long enough to build 3 houses on.
A classical definition of liberalism isn't contrary to capitalism. However, current popular use, which uses the "positive liberalism" definition is socialism... which, obviously, is contrary...
This is hogwash based upon a simplistic assumption that, because some do, all forms of socialism must be based upon public ownership of the means of production. This is a vapid ploy.
Every time a segment of the market starts to get hot, everyone rushes in exclaiming "this time it's different." A pig is always a pig no matter what color the lipstick you apply... and socialism is always socialism.
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What sometimes goes under the heading of managed capitalism is plainly socialistic in its bases, yet has nothing to do with property ownership issues at all.
Control is the defining characteristic of ownership. Just because the government doesn't take possession of something's title doesn't mean it's not an ownership issue.
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The successes of managed capitalism...
Success at what? The human suffering due to limting one's opportunity can't be measured... That's the evil of socialism... or whatever you're calling it... managed capitalism. (Is that like calling yourself progressive rather than socialistic? New week, new term to cover the tracks?)
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stand as a source of contant consternation for the opposing forces of laissez-faire free-market capitalism, especially given the entirely dismal record that has been put up by the latter form, recently culminating here in the marked unpleasantness of our current economic plight.
I don't know what you're referring to. Economic slowdown that occurs in both cap and soc systems? The difference being that a cap system has the dexterity to recover? Or, are you saying the tendency of people to have exercised their freedom in making bad financial decisions is a tribute to why freedom is over-rated?
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With all due respect, today's libertarians are increasingly yesterday's neocons seeking to rebrand themselves in a desperate last-ditch attempt to disassociate themselves from the all but unadulterated record of disgrace and failure that their ideals have recently resulted in.
It wouldn't be the first time the definition of a word changed under my nose. However, what recent results are you referring to?
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Real capitalism busies itself in little more than the accumulation of more and more capital, and it doesn't particularly care how it goes about that process.
Actually, capitalism is about capital moving around so that the poor are the beneficiaries of the rush to sell to the rich and the middle-class are the beneficiaries of that and the work created.
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Real capitalism treats workers as it would trees, or water, or minerals buried in the ground -- as resources to be exploited in the earning of profits that can then be devoted to the creation of more capital.
Welcome to the real world. The only difference, in that respect, to socialism is that the potential to overcome your situation is minimized in soc; maximized in cap.
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There is no mechanism in real capitalism by which the benefits of there being more captial become available or even evident to anyone but those who own capital.
Actually, productivity is the mechanism. Please read Smith before commenting further.
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Adam Smith did not invent nor much support capitalism. In the Wealth of Nations (which should be taken btw in conjunction with his Theory of Moral Sentiments), Smith describes a rational political economy that exists within a patently social framework.
Apparently, you've read neither Marx or Smith.
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There is little comfort to be found here by latter-day laissez-faire property rights proponents.
I would argue that what many call capitalism today is actually fascism.
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It is not a free market when property owners use their pillaged property rights to coerce workers into accepting a deflated wage.
Please read Locke to understand property rights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Apparently this didn't much impress the framers of the Constitution who, wishing to support the public good through the establishment and operation of an efficient postal service, gave Congress the power to establish national roads.
Do you have a reference for it? (It sounds interesting. Book preferably with the story.)
Which of the founders were pro and against and what were the arguments on either side?
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While others puzzle at how the right can conclude from among the economic rubble that regimes of public oversight and regulation constitute "unnecessary" layers of bureaucracy.
What economic rubble? You think a socialist system doesn't stall?
Brian gets in his SUV and drives to work. He fills up his tank and it costs him 25 dollars. His co-worker pulls up in a new car and explains it runs on water and he no longer has to buy gas. It was Made in America and the government didn't help building it. They are selling fast because they are cheaper and have a great new design.
Brian while at work reads a company letter to all employees that on July 4th they will be having a celebration of American Independance.
It's Friday Brian looks at his paycheck and is pleased. He worked all week and federal government didnt take a large sum of his check. His income was not taxed. He AGREEDED to pay into a few government services he might be using and a few private charities. Ever since government welfare was abolished he has more money in his check to donate and manage his expenses.
Brian comes home and kisses his wife and child and asks them if they had a good day. His Child tells him they learned about Liberty, Freedom and the Constitution today at school. They learned math, science and ENGLISH. His son was allowed to pray in school before lunch and given time to pledge alliance to the flag.
After dinner Brian watches baseball with his son, puts his son to bed and spends time with his wife. They discuss their future, politics and other weekend plans. Brian cleans his guns loads them and puts them away and goes to bed.
The next morning he reads the paper, mowes the lawn and takes a break to talk to his black neighbor Bill who is also working outside. They talk about their familes and check up on local events. Brian returns a few lawn items he borrowed last weekend and they share a beer.
Bill and Brian notice Micheal another neighbor comes home from military service in their own state. Micheal discusses US bases are no longer in other countries and only train at home which was easier for his family. He discussed border control and his new job career.
Brians father and mother are retired live in the same town and didnt have to move because of property taxes. They are able to see more of their grandchildren and stay in touch with friends. Social Security was phased out but thanks to Government making sure our dollar was backed by GOLD inflation did not effect our parents saving accounts and social security checks.
Then Brian sudden wakes up in his bed.
We was dreaming. He rolls out of bed and finds his wife is not in bed with him because she died last week from a robber who broke into the house. The Robber shot her and his son because the local police department took to long to get the gun permits approved for his family to have a household gun. Brian also didnt have a job anymore his IT job was shipped to India for cheaper wages. He goes down to cash his stimilus package check. It's April 15th files his taxes showing he owes more money to the government and uses his Stimilus package check to pay the IRS. Brian puts 2 gallons of gas in his truck because that is all he can afford gas is now 6 dollars a gallon. Brian drive to his parents and they tell him they will be moving soon property taxes are now to high and they can't afford it on a fixed income. Brian comes home and looks for jobs online, Michael's mother rings the doorbell and tells Brian, Michael was killed in IRAQ nation building and funeral is next week. Bill is also outside and remembers when his daughter passed away because of the poision found in the toys from China. Brian turns on TV and the newscaster says Obama and Hillary will be swore in within the next few days. Obama's plan within the first 100 days the Federal Government will increase taxes for energy of my house, my car, my income and also more gun laws will be passed. The pledge of allegiance will be removed from schools, the constitution is just a piece of paper and liberty is now only an illusion.
That thing's made the rounds of email spam for years now.
Years ago, that little screed may have some basis in reality. My prediction is that it's lost it's effectiveness now that most people have become aware of what the Republican party has mutated into.
My thoughts exactly.
Today's Republicans would go to war with someone who was invited to Audrey's party but never went.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,381,135 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Thousand
That's not capitalistic. If you didn't know, Adam Smith, author of "The Wealth of Nations" and the father of capitalism was a moral philosopher. He assembled the theory of capitalism-- or, better yet, described his observations of it-- to describe an ideal, practical and sustainable group of practices that tended to treat workers best.
Real capitalism empowers employees to overcome safety issues, etc. You should read the book. Besides giving you the foundation to successfully start and run a business, it also will expose all the BS the fascist types claim to be capitalism.
Aren't you the one who just closed a business? And you're trying to claim this book's "giving you the foundation to successfully start and run a business"? So you didn't read the book or?????????
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Thousand
If the free-market dictated their pay, they're not overpaid. It's that simple. Unions use the manipulation of property rights to coerce companies to pay an inflated wage.
Please explain just HOW a free-market DICTATEs executive pay?
When UAL came out of bankruptcy the suits finagled give-backs from the pilots and them voted themselves nice bonuses, how'd the free market work THAT magic Were people demanding the people in the cockpit be paid less while the suits sat on their butt and counted the $$$ ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Thousand
Union employees, however, demand benefits like retirement. .
And OF COURSE executives NEVER demand compensation packages that include LARGE severance packages that have NOTHING to do with their job performance, right? They NEVER get paid large $$$ even when they run their company's stock price down, right? THAT's delusional!
You might find if you take a coin from your pocket and really LOOK at it that it has two sides
Brian gets in his SUV and drives to work. He fills up his tank and it costs him 25 dollars. His co-worker pulls up in a new car and explains it runs on water and he no longer has to buy gas. It was Made in America and the government didn't help building it. They are selling fast because they are cheaper and have a great new design.
Brian while at work reads a company letter to all employees that on July 4th they will be having a celebration of American Independance.
It's Friday Brian looks at his paycheck and is pleased. He worked all week and federal government didnt take a large sum of his check. His income was not taxed. He AGREEDED to pay into a few government services he might be using and a few private charities. Ever since government welfare was abolished he has more money in his check to donate and manage his expenses.
Brian comes home and kisses his wife and child and asks them if they had a good day. His Child tells him they learned about Liberty, Freedom and the Constitution today at school. They learned math, science and ENGLISH. His son was allowed to pray in school before lunch and given time to pledge alliance to the flag.
After dinner Brian watches baseball with his son, puts his son to bed and spends time with his wife. They discuss their future, politics and other weekend plans. Brian cleans his guns loads them and puts them away and goes to bed.
The next morning he reads the paper, mowes the lawn and takes a break to talk to his black neighbor Bill who is also working outside. They talk about their familes and check up on local events. Brian returns a few lawn items he borrowed last weekend and they share a beer.
Bill and Brian notice Micheal another neighbor comes home from military service in their own state. Micheal discusses US bases are no longer in other countries and only train at home which was easier for his family. He discussed border control and his new job career.
Brians father and mother are retired live in the same town and didnt have to move because of property taxes. They are able to see more of their grandchildren and stay in touch with friends. Social Security was phased out but thanks to Government making sure our dollar was backed by GOLD inflation did not effect our parents saving accounts and social security checks.
Then Brian sudden wakes up in his bed.
We was dreaming. He rolls out of bed and finds his wife is not in bed with him because she died last week from a robber who broke into the house. The Robber shot her and his son because the local police department took to long to get the gun permits approved for his family to have a household gun. Brian also didnt have a job anymore his IT job was shipped to India for cheaper wages. He goes down to cash his stimilus package check. It's April 15th files his taxes showing he owes more money to the government and uses his Stimilus package check to pay the IRS. Brian puts 2 gallons of gas in his truck because that is all he can afford gas is now 6 dollars a gallon. Brian drive to his parents and they tell him they will be moving soon property taxes are now to high and they can't afford it on a fixed income. Brian comes home and looks for jobs online, Michael's mother rings the doorbell and tells Brian, Michael was killed in IRAQ nation building and funeral is next week. Bill is also outside and remembers when his daughter passed away because of the poision found in the toys from China. Brian turns on TV and the newscaster says Obama and Hillary will be swore in within the next few days. Obama's plan within the first 100 days the Federal Government will increase taxes for energy of my house, my car, my income and also more gun laws will be passed. The pledge of allegiance will be removed from schools, the constitution is just a piece of paper and liberty is now only an illusion.
Aren't you the one who just closed a business? And you're trying to claim this book's "giving you the foundation to successfully start and run a business"? So you didn't read the book or?????????
I think the important part of this is the fact that people still have the ability to open and close businesses. Slowly though, that right is being taken away from us.
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