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Old 01-11-2007, 04:34 PM
 
11,601 posts, read 17,576,826 times
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I hate these debates because they end up going into one direction - Bush-hate and all the same old debates start again. That is why and how nothing gets done. Don't think about that, don't think of Bush, don't think of "bush lied", don't think of "9/11", don't think of "neocon plot", don't think of "war for oil", don't think of "halliburton", don't think of "vietnam", for republicans don't think of "this started with Clinton".

The question should be this - here, now, today - what do we do to win in Iraq, what is defined as winning? If we pull out what are the issues and repurcussions? I won't answer the first two but I truley beleive if we pull out all forces and don't leave with a reasonable level of security then Iraq will collapse, become a sattelite of Iran, or turn into a out of control civil war that will bring in the neighboring countries of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, possibly Turkey and will destabilze the entire region. It will be a regional war involving our allies, it will include genocide, it will include mass relocations, it will include famine and death on levels that will far surpass the current conflict. We will be pulled back in, a year or 10 years from now, and in the long run it will cost more money and more lives for the U.S.. If you think the U.S. can leave the middle east and hide behind the great pond, leaving all the troubles of this area behind, you are fooling yourselves.


Will 20,000 more troops be what we need in Iraq? I don't know, but I have yet to read one response here that does tackle the issue of what do we need in Iraq to prevail. If you want to pull out of Iraq that's fine, but are you willing to tackle the consequences of that action?
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,305 posts, read 4,940,969 times
Reputation: 1069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
...I truley beleive if we pull out all forces and don't leave with a reasonable level of security then Iraq will collapse, become a sattelite of Iran, or turn into a out of control civil war that will bring in the neighboring countries of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, possibly Turkey and will destabilze the entire region. It will be a regional war involving our allies, it will include genocide, it will include mass relocations, it will include famine and death on levels that will far surpass the current conflict. We will be pulled back in, a year or 10 years from now, and in the long run it will cost more money and more lives for the U.S..
I don't know how old you are, but you should go back and read what the "sky will fall" folks were saying before we pulled out of Vietnam. None of it happened.
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Old 01-11-2007, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Texas!
332 posts, read 340,506 times
Reputation: 108
I heard it's actually 25,000 troops.....and as sad as it is to say if we take them out now, were going to have another 9/11, I don't support the war at all, never have but I do support the troops.
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Old 01-11-2007, 06:21 PM
 
Location: on an island
13,374 posts, read 40,232,802 times
Reputation: 13187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I think we should start a hate bush forum.
Only if we get a Dump On Clinton forum along with it--check out MoMark's President Bush thread.

There are three things I worry about with this surge:
1) More loss of life, of Iraqis as well as servicemen and servicewomen.
2) Are hearts and minds being won over there? To me it is just like VietNam in that nobody really seems to know who the "good guys" are. Weren't we supposed to help the Iraqis rather than rape, bomb and shoot them?
3) Do we really have enough manpower?

I wish we could at least get Bin Laden, but at this point, I am not sure how much difference it would make. It's like the Hydra: For every Al Queda who is caught, there are probably 8 more to take his place. This is why I worry about resources, protection and readiness here at home.

Last edited by BlueWillowPlate; 01-11-2007 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 01-11-2007, 07:10 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
985 posts, read 2,554,455 times
Reputation: 817
No way! Are there people on this site that hate Bush?!
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:05 PM
 
3 posts, read 17,976 times
Reputation: 12
Anyone out there with a soldier deploying out of Ft Lewis Army Base, Washington soon? I would like to make contact with others and possibly get a thread going to keep each other in the loop with info we are able to get from them while they of over seas
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Old Town Alexandria
14,506 posts, read 23,238,392 times
Reputation: 8833
Well, I was fair and deleted my rant. At least I don't talk about some indiscretion that happened 10 years ago re: Clinton. I am a registered Republican btw. Will NEVER vote with that party ever again bcs of what is happening now.
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,062,409 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by milliebfit View Post
No way! Are there people on this site that hate Bush?!
I don't hate Bush. I just hate the constant barrage of monumental mistakes he insists on foisting upon us on a nearly daily basis
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Old 01-11-2007, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,062,409 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I hate these debates because they end up going into one direction - Bush-hate and all the same old debates start again. That is why and how nothing gets done. Don't think about that, don't think of Bush, don't think of "bush lied", don't think of "9/11", don't think of "neocon plot", don't think of "war for oil", don't think of "halliburton", don't think of "vietnam", for republicans don't think of "this started with Clinton".

The question should be this - here, now, today - what do we do to win in Iraq, what is defined as winning? If we pull out what are the issues and repurcussions? I won't answer the first two but I truley beleive if we pull out all forces and don't leave with a reasonable level of security then Iraq will collapse, become a sattelite of Iran, or turn into a out of control civil war that will bring in the neighboring countries of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, possibly Turkey and will destabilze the entire region. It will be a regional war involving our allies, it will include genocide, it will include mass relocations, it will include famine and death on levels that will far surpass the current conflict. We will be pulled back in, a year or 10 years from now, and in the long run it will cost more money and more lives for the U.S.. If you think the U.S. can leave the middle east and hide behind the great pond, leaving all the troubles of this area behind, you are fooling yourselves.


Will 20,000 more troops be what we need in Iraq? I don't know, but I have yet to read one response here that does tackle the issue of what do we need in Iraq to prevail. If you want to pull out of Iraq that's fine, but are you willing to tackle the consequences of that action?
Because history taught us that Vietnam and all of Southeast Asia fell into total disarray after we left... oh, wait...

If the Middle East wants to indulge in Middle-Ages like barbarianism, let them. I'd prefer they did it without our kids being in the middle of it.

Snark aside, those 20,000 troops are going to have to be pretty much superhuman, considering that they are going to be asked to do what 150,000 troops already there can't do, which is stabilize Baghdad. We have no business being over there, and never did. I don't get what part of this is so tough to understand.
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Old 01-11-2007, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,305 posts, read 4,940,969 times
Reputation: 1069
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb919 View Post
...those 20,000 troops are going to have to be pretty much superhuman, considering that they are going to be asked to do what 150,000 troops already there can't do, which is stabilize Baghdad.
Don't forget, we actually had that many troops there in the past, and they couldn't get the job done, then. Let me hasten to say that it's not the troops fault; they are doing the best they can with what they have. However, before the invasion, there were many predictions that it would take hundreds of thousands of troops to stabilize the country after the initial battles. The army Chief of Staff at the time was one of them. He was replaced, and all the rest were pooh-poohed. Then, the administration made things worse by completely dismantling all of Iraq's police and military infrastructure and letting the insurgents run wild. Our poor guys and gals never had a chance.

Our system of justice punishes people for crimes they committed in the past. I don't understand why this administration has not been indicted for the crimes they committed when commiting this attack on another sovereign nation. I know that won't solve anything, except that the idiotic behavior and the incredibly stupid decisions are continuing, and more of our troops will be sacrificed as a result. We need to fire the coach, then do everything we can to rebuild the team.
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