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I'll second that..and remind others that so far, in this country, anyone is free to leave (unless you're a felon under court order). The sincerest, purest form of making amends would be to pack up and leave....any takers?
Well, as a poster on this thread I can at least say that I am not a taker on your offer. Then again, I am half Cherokee Indian. And I still have to ask why when Hitler made war on a people and exterminated them it is called genocide. When we do it, it is called invading and conquering. What, just because we didn't build extermination camps we are different. Like I said earlier, Hitler was just more organized in his attempt. Plus, the technology was present in his time to make the process much more simple and effective. Had the Europeans been a few hundred years more advanced, we would be talking about an extinct group of people right now. Not a surviving one.
Well, as a poster on this thread I can at least say that I am not a taker on your offer. Then again, I am half Cherokee Indian. And I still have to ask why when Hitler made war on a people and exterminated them it is called genocide. When we do it, it is called invading and conquering. What, just because we didn't build extermination camps we are different. Like I said earlier, Hitler was just more organized in his attempt. Plus, the technology was present in his time to make the process much more simple and effective. Had the Europeans been a few hundred years more advanced, we would be talking about an extinct group of people right now. Not a surviving one.
Interesting, and normally I love to "ramble' mentally....it's interesting. But on serious level, I just don't believe in "what-ifs", because, by their nature, they're unprovable, and there's really no end to them.
IF the early Europeans had the technology to exterminate every Indian man, woman, and child, they WOULD have, you say? I don't know, and no one else does, either...because this didn't happen.
IF Africans had been technologically advanced, and IF Europeans lived as 'tribes', would the Africans have sailed to Europe, captured the whites, and hauled them off to the New World to be sold into slavery? I don't know, and no one else does, either, because it didn't happen.
IF North America had been settled from the Pacific by the Chinese, instead of from the Atlantic by the whites, would our lives today be better, or worse, or the same? I don't know.
IF my Aunt had a somewhat different 'anatomy', she'd be my Uncle...but she doesn't...and she isn't.
One of my favorite quotes on this subject came quite inadvertently from my dear mother in law years ago. Half Apache, half Chumash, she was proud of her native heritage. She was born and raised in California, and her favorite place on EARTH was Yosemite Valley. She even had a huge photo of Yosemite Falls on her living room wall, along with her "western" stuff, and "Indian" stuff.
One day, she mused half to herself but also to my wife and I,.."Beautiful Yosemite....what a beautiful place. I wonder what it would be like, if the white people hadn't come in, built roads and buildings, and brought in the tourists ?" Pausing briefly, with a silly "chuckle" at my wife, she continued, "I'd probably have never HEARD of it". We all laughed.
Simple, pragmatic truth. IF the whites hadn't come, and IF Yosemite had remained as it was, it's unlikely it would ever be seen at all, except for the very few (1,500 or so) people who actually lived there, or the very few neighboring tribes who traded with them. Nobody else on earth, including the Indians, would have seen it. Would that mean it was "better" before, or "better" now? I don't know. I'd never have seen it, either.
MEChA constantly suggests that IF the gringos hadn't 'stolen' California, Mexico would still own it....and we can ALL see that California's a rich place. But I don't buy that...I think if Mexico still owned California, California wouldn't BE a rich place, but more than likely, would today resemble Baja California or Sonora...both states which Mexico never lost.
Would California be better off today if the gringos had never come? I don't know... I can only guess.
Fair enough macmeal, I'll give you that one. There really is no way to absolutely know what could or would have been. I can only make educated guesses by looking at what information we have. But then again, a lot of our excepted scientific theories are based on the same system of guesswork. But like you said, we can only guess.
Interesting, and normally I love to "ramble' mentally....it's interesting. But on serious level, I just don't believe in "what-ifs", because, by their nature, they're unprovable, and there's really no end to them.
Speculating on "what-ifs" has educational value. It is not totally idle speculation. That's how people learn not to repeat their mistakes. What if Elvis Presley never took drugs, chances are he'd probably still be alive today. Lesson learned: if you want to increase your odds of living a long life, don't abuse drugs.
The past can't be changed but we can learn from it.
Yup it was genocide and when we couldn't kill them off, we tried converting them... Although it was misguided, it is the past... there is no I O U for past mistakes, live with it and move on.... the only thing you should use about the past is to LEARN from it and prevent it from happening again... not asking for I O U's...
Fair enough macmeal, I'll give you that one. There really is no way to absolutely know what could or would have been. I can only make educated guesses by looking at what information we have. But then again, a lot of our excepted scientific theories are based on the same system of guesswork. But like you said, we can only guess.
Fair enough...and pardon my 'tirade'....had a long day, I guess.
One could possibly say that we are still in the process of genocide:
Spiritual and cultural genocide: Native Americans are faced with either being totally assimilated by the Western Culture - or dying out on the many reservations... kept there, out of the way and out of mind, by supposedly beneficent governments; ignored and forgotten by the citizens.
And; what is wrong with assimilation?
The 'being mistreated part' of the indigenous peoples by the dominant culture I do have a problem with.
Speculating on "what-ifs" has educational value. It is not totally idle speculation. That's how people learn not to repeat their mistakes. What if Elvis Presley never took drugs, chances are he'd probably still be alive today. Lesson learned: if you want to increase your odds of living a long life, don't abuse drugs.
The past can't be changed but we can learn from it.
Quite true, and a good point. We can't 'undo' the past. We can (and, as a decent society, we SHOULD) try to 'atone' for what has gone wrong. It's my belief that to a great degree, in this country, we HAVE done much 'atoning', an effort pretty rare among societies.
But when it goes on to the point that we insist on just 'beating ourselves up' in an endless round of 'awfulness', then it's not only tiresome, it's ultimately pointless...and it does nobody any good.
If you've personally killed an Indian, you should go to prison. Likewise if you've ever owned a slave. If you've ever said mean' racist things to people, or kept them from finding a job, or from succeeding in life, then you ought to be ashamed of yourself, and you ought to make amends.
But if you've never done these things, you have no need to 'beat yourself up'. If 'people who look like you' have done these things, that's not YOU...just like it's not YOU when people who 'look like you' terrorize the neighborhood in gangs. If you're doing it, you're guilty. If you're NOT, there should be no stigma on you.
What did "we" do, in the past? I don't know, because for MOST of it, I wasn't born. As you say, it's the 'right thing to do' to profit by past example. But to live in constant guilt doesn't prove anything. If you didn't do it, you're not guilty.
The 'being mistreated part' of the indigenous peoples by the dominant culture I do have a problem with.
I noticed this point as well. After ALL, weren't we ALL 'assimilated by Western Culture'? NONE of us really remembers the 'primitive ways' our ancestors lived, and MOST of us don't miss it at all.
"The genocide against American Natives was one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal campaigns in human history. It started, like all genocides, with the oppressor treating the victims as sub-humans. It continued until almost all Natives were wiped of the face of the earth, along with much of their language, culture and religion."
"The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world."
David E. Stannard.
"By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated.... Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law."
Peter Montague
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