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Old 01-10-2007, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Burlington VT
1,405 posts, read 4,311,814 times
Reputation: 539

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I find the dichotomy ("Liberal" vs "Conservative") pretty inadequate for discussions of this kind.

A simple left / right continuum along a single axis tells you very very little.


The Nolan Chart gives a much more complete way of looking at this sort of thing:

Here's "The World's Smallest Political Quiz" to illustrate my point:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Near Charlotte, NC
405 posts, read 1,131,637 times
Reputation: 192
To me, a Liberal is described as:

1. Someone who "knows better than poor stupid me what is best for me", and plans on shoving their agenda down my throat every time they get a chance

Example: bike helmet laws. While I agree with them, I survived riding a bike without a helmet from early childhood to early forties. I don't need anyone to 'keep me safe from myself'. I am perfectly capable of getting my child to use one if I feel it is necessary (and I do).

2. Someone who supports give-away Programs (Welfare, Food Stamps, etc.).

Example: I make a good salary, so you want to raise my taxes so that you can give the money to people who dropped out of school for no reason, or were to stupid or lazy to use any number of widely known methods available to prevent pregnancy.

I do not want to support people who make stupid decisions in life - period.

Welfare and Food Stamps could work - If there were LIMITS ON HOW LONG YOU COULD COLLECT! Temporary support because you have fallen on hard times - I think that idea is acceptable to everyone. Support you for 20 years because you are either uneducated, lazy, a drug user, or a teen mother - NO.

3. Responsible for the "Politically correct run amok" state we are currently in.

Heaven forbid we should offend anyone with our laws or our way of life! If someone from (fill in country of choice here) is here illegally, and protests because they don't like the fact that the signs aren't in (fill in language here) - I say arrest them and ship them back to (country chosen above) where ALL the signs are in (language chosen above). Don't pander to them to get their vote in the next election.

Or, if someone here illegally from (fill in country of choice here) and tries to use our laws against us to force the changes they want - one way ticket back to (country chosen above).

4. ACLU. If you belong to, support, or agree with this organization you are not just a liberal, you are a bleeding-heart liberal

Just my opinion - someone asked 'what is a liberal to you', so I answered

I could go on, but my fingers are getting tired
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Near Charlotte, NC
405 posts, read 1,131,637 times
Reputation: 192
Almost forgot a big one - Anyone who goes to a foreign country that has claimed the US is 'the enemy' and meets with their leader, telling him how 'bad' the US is and what a wonderful leader he is - LIBERAL TRAITOR.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,265 posts, read 43,569,747 times
Reputation: 18795
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
No, holy wars get started when those who hold particular beliefs tie them into enforcing those beliefs onto unwilling others usually as a social or political control mechanism. It's an excuse to accomplish an earthly, not heavenly, goal. Northern Ireland was never about religion though it was portrayed as such. Iraq is not about religion truly, it's about political power and rivalries between competing factions who are sects of the same religion. I made a clear distinction between my personal and private beliefs and my tolerance of others to decide their own. I'm surprised you missed that.
As for Jews, no, they are under special covenant with God.
You're right though that people take off quickly on this and speed forward to abuse others based on their own beliefs. I do not.
I'm glad to hear that (all of it)... and I don't think you would abuse others, but you got my point about how that can happen. As much as I love my religion, I feel it can be dangerous - from people of all faiths - to believe ours is the only "right" one.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:43 PM
 
504 posts, read 1,621,036 times
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I guess Rush Limbaugh is a bleeding heart Liberal? He used the Aclu a couple of years ago.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Near Charlotte, NC
405 posts, read 1,131,637 times
Reputation: 192
Rush is not a liberal. He is an opportunist.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,265 posts, read 43,569,747 times
Reputation: 18795
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexander59 View Post
I guess Rush Limbaugh is a bleeding heart Liberal? He used the Aclu a couple of years ago.
Touche... As I've said, they support ANYONE who needs defending, just like a lawyer is supposed to. If lawyers rejected clients based on their "moral beliefs", most criminals would be left without representation... which might sound nice on principle, but clearly goes against our basic rights.

P.S. I'm not a card-carrying ACLU member or anything! I just support their overall cause, and recognize the good things they've accomplished.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Maine
15,142 posts, read 19,784,335 times
Reputation: 17336
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaz longue View Post
I find the dichotomy ("Liberal" vs "Conservative") pretty inadequate for discussions of this kind.

A simple left / right continuum along a single axis tells you very very little.
I agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chaz longue View Post
The Nolan Chart gives a much more complete way of looking at this sort of thing:

Here's "The World's Smallest Political Quiz" to illustrate my point:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
I took it and came out a way left liberal. But really, I'm not. On economic and environmental issues? Yeah. I'm a total lefty. But on many social issues, I make Sean Hannity and Pat Buchanan look liberal. Neither the Democrats, the Republicans, Greens, or Libertarians reflect my views. I see virtues and vices in all of them.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Maine
15,142 posts, read 19,784,335 times
Reputation: 17336
All you wing nuts remember that the ACLU also defedned Oliver North.

I don't think the ACLU is immoral. I think their basic problem is that they are amoral. Their core value is Americans' Civil Liberties, which I find admirable, but when they use that to defend pedophiles and such, I have a hard time feeling very supportive of them.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Near Charlotte, NC
405 posts, read 1,131,637 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
P.S. I'm not a card-carrying ACLU member or anything! I just support their overall cause, and recognize the good things they've accomplished.
Please enlighten me on some of the recent 'good things' the ACLU has accomplished.

I believe that in the past the ACLU did a lot good in defending freedom of speech. I believe that was its primary mission. Many of the early free-speech labor cases were won by working people defended by the ACLU.

While I agree with the early work of the ACLU, I believe whatever good it did in the past has been erased by the harm it has done in the present with its fanatical secularism and apparent abandonment of common sense.
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